Defi Technologies, Inc. Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the DeFi Technologies 2025 Fourth Quarter Financial Review and Shareholder Call. I'm Curtis Schlaufman, VP of Marketing and Communications. Joining me on the call today are Chief Executive Officer, Johan Wattenstrom; Chief Financial Officer, Paul Bozoki; and President, Andrew Forson. We'll begin with opening remarks from Johan Wattenstrom followed by a review of our fourth quarter and full year 2025 financial results from Paul and then an update on growth initiatives and strategic priorities from Andrew. After that, we'll open up the line for Q&A. We won't be able to get to everything. And if we don't get to your question on this call, please e-mail [email protected] or [email protected], and I'll get to your questions as soon as possible. We'll also invite some of our analysts to ask questions live with the management team. Before we begin, I'd like to remind everyone that certain statements made during today's call may constitute forward-looking information under applicable securities laws. These statements include, but are not limited to, comments regarding expected financial performance, business development, strategic initiatives, market expansion, product growth and future opportunities. Forward-looking statements are based on management's current expectations and assumptions and are subject to known and unknown risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed or implied. With that, I'll turn it over to our CEO, Johan Wattenstrom.

Thank you, Curtis, and thank you, everyone, joining us today. As many of you know, as a co-founder, I've been very much involved in the business since its inception and stepped into the CEO role during the fourth quarter. I'm very encouraged by where the business stands as of today and by the foundation we built for the next phase of growth. Our 2025 results reflect the strength of the platform we have built and the progress we have made over the last several years. If you look at our IFRS revenue trajectory, the scale of that progression becomes very clear. In 2021, revenue was $15 million. In 2022, it was a negative $14 million. In 2023, it was $10 million. In 2024, it increased to $31 million. And in 2025, it reached a record USD 99 million. That progression is important because it shows how far the business has evolved. We have built DeFi Technologies into a much broader, more durable and more scalable platform. We are not reliant on any single product, revenue stream or market environment. We have built a business with multiple pathways for growth, and we believe we have never been better positioned to scale the platform and capitalize on the opportunities ahead. At the center of the group is Valour, our digital asset management business. Valour gives investors regulated access to digital assets through traditional financial infrastructure. And today, the platform includes more than 100 listed ETPs across multiple exchanges globally. That geographical reach, combined with the breadth of products we offer, continues to set us apart in the market. What makes our model especially compelling is its vertical integration. We do not simply earn management fees on AUM. We monetize those assets across multiple activities, including staking, lending and market making. That gives us multiple revenue streams from the same base of assets and allows us to monetize more efficiently than a traditional asset manager. The capital we raised has strengthened the model even further. It has enhanced our ability to increase monetization across the platform and across the balance sheet, particularly by expanding the trading, hedging and market making infrastructure that supports Valour's issuance stack and allows us to earn additional income on AUM more efficiently. During the quarter, we continued executing against several important priorities. First, we expanded the Valour product platform and ended the year having achieved our goal of reaching 100 listed ETPs. That milestone reinforces our position as one of the most diversified digital asset ETP issuers globally. The product expansion continues into high value-added products, including more institutional investment exposures. Second, we remain focused on broadening the investor base that can access the platform. Today, the majority of our AUM is still driven by retail investors, but a major priority going forward is increasing institutional participation for structures such as UCITS, AMCs, hedge fund structures, fund of funds, on-chain distribution and other investment vehicles that can access larger pools of capital. Third, geographic expansion remains an important opportunity. Europe remains our core market and main focus. We continue to see significant growth potential in jurisdictions across Europe. Outside Europe, we continue to expand into select regions where access to regulated digital asset investment products remains limited. Brazil is an example of that. And we also continue to advance our discussions into other locations in Latin America, Asia, Africa and the Middle East. And finally, our financial position remains a major strategic advantage. We have never been better positioned from a balance sheet perspective. We ended the year with approximately USD 178.7 million in total cash, treasury and venture portfolio value and effectively no debt. That fortress balance sheet gives us the flexibility not only to support the business through volatility, but also lean into opportunities and aggressively pursue our business goals in any macro environment. Even in a prolonged crypto winter, that financial strength allows us to continue increasing monetization across our AUM and balance sheet, invest through the cycle, diversify revenue streams, accelerate strategic growth initiatives and pursue attractive acquisitions or investments in assets that may become available at compelling valuations. In other words, we believe our balance sheet allows us to be proactive rather than reactionary and position us to emerge even stronger as the digital asset markets recover. More broadly, we are building for the convergence of decentralized finance and traditional capital markets. We see a significant long-term opportunity to create the products, infrastructure and institutional rails that we believe will transform capital markets over the next five to ten years. We are entering 2026 from a position of strength with a proven business model, optimized monetization and the financial flexibility to invest in the next phase of growth. We believe we are still in the early stages of building the institutional gateway to the future of finance. With that, I'll turn it over to Paul to walk through the financial results.

Thank you, Johan, and good morning, everyone. I'll begin with an overview of assets under management. DeFi closed December 31 with AUM of $622.3 million. Average AUM throughout fiscal 2025 was approximately $809.9 million. During the year, Valour also achieved net inflows of $110.1 million into its ETP products, reflecting continued investor demand despite market volatility. Turning to revenue. DeFi generated record full year revenue of $99.1 million for fiscal 2025. For the three months ended December 31, 2025, revenue was $20 million. On the profitability side, net income and comprehensive income for fiscal 2025 was a record $62.7 million. For the fourth quarter alone, net income was $28.9 million. These results reflect the earnings power of our platform and the resilience of our diversified model across market cycles. Within Valour, our Q4 effective staking and lending income was 4.7% on the $728.3 million average Q4 AUM, an increase from the 3.4% realized during Q3. While we staked approximately 44.4% of our AUM at the end of Q4, our average staking during the quarter was approximately 70%, which contributed to the higher earned staking yield. Staking was reduced at December 31, 2025, to allow for coin transfers for audit purposes to verify our ownership. We adapt our staking percentage in sync with market conditions and internal risk management policies to ensure we can meet ETP commitments on a timely basis, and we generally stake between 60% and 70% of our AUM. Our Q4 effective management fee yield was 1.2%, consistent with earlier quarters in 2025. We remind investors that we do not charge management fees on our main Bitcoin and Ethereum products, which reduces our effective management fee income from the typical 1.9% we charge on most altcoin ETPs. We closed Q4 with 102 products and reached our 100 product goal during October 2025. Stillman Digital is also an important part of the platform. That business is not dependent on cryptocurrency prices being strong, but rather on trading volatility and institutional activity. Stillman had an exceptional Q4 with revenues of $3.3 million, up from $2.2 million in Q3 2025. Stillman's full year 2025 revenues totaled $9.6 million, and we expect the grid business to grow by 15% to 20% in 2026, irrespective of whether crypto prices increase. This growth is expected to be driven by a combination of more effective monetization of existing flows, enhanced customer acquisition workflows, leveraging AI for outreach and customer onboarding and expansion into new geographies. Stillman is positioned well both domestically in the United States where the majority of business is and in international markets through its regulated Bermuda entity. As previously discussed, the timing of DeFi Alpha transactions remains opportunistic and is dependent on market conditions, and some of these opportunities have been deferred. Turning to operating income. Q4 operating income was $7 million, and operating income for the 12 months ended December 31 was $46.5 million, reflecting our continued focus on profitability. Operating income declined by $2 million from Q3 2025 due to lower crypto prices and lower average AUM in the fourth quarter. Q4 IFRS net income after tax came in at $28.9 million with full year IFRS net income after tax came in at $62.7 million. In terms of our crypto investments, the company's venture portfolio now consists of 12 private investments with the largest being our 5% stake in AMINA Bank, which makes up 83% of the portfolio's fair value. AMINA Bank continues to perform exceptionally well, although its AUM did decline to CHF 2.7 billion at the end of Q4 from CHF 3.5 billion at the end of Q3, in line with the fall in crypto prices during the fourth quarter. To reflect the compression in EV to AUM multiples and lower crypto prices, the company recorded an approximately CHF 11 million noncash mark-to-market negative adjustment for its investment in AMINA Bank. Our most recent investment was in Stablecorp, the issuer of the QCAD Canadian-dollar stablecoin. Following a multiyear regulatory approval process, we are pleased to note that in Q4, Stablecorp received a final receipt for its prospectus, qualifying the distribution of QCAD tokens under Canada's current regulatory framework for stablecoins. This milestone establishes QCAD as Canada's first compliant CAD-denominated stablecoin and represents an important step in expanding regulated digital asset infrastructure in the country. We're proud to be early backers of this project alongside Coinbase and Circle Ventures. The company did not make any new investments during the fourth quarter. We continue to believe AMINA will be a successful long-term investment and the addition of Stablecorp further strengthens the strategic positioning of our venture portfolio. Turning to the balance sheet. As of December 31, 2025, the company held $113.8 million in cash and USDT/USDC, including $91.2 million of cash. Digital asset treasury holdings totaled approximately $35.5 million, and the venture and private portfolio was valued at approximately $29.4 million. Together, total cash, treasury and venture portfolio value stood at $178.7 million at year-end. That financial position gives us a high degree of flexibility. It supports continued investment in platform growth, product expansion, strategic infrastructure and opportunistic capital deployment while also reinforcing the strength and durability of the business. As we look ahead, our focus remains on scaling the core drivers of the platform, expanding monetization across AUM, supporting institutional product development and maintaining disciplined capital allocation. At this point in time, the company is declining to provide guidance for 2026, given the general market volatility caused in part by the war in Iran and, in particular, volatility in crypto prices since Bitcoin peaked on October 10, 2025. The company reminds investors that it has exceptional financial strength with $113.8 million of cash in USDT/USDC on hand at December 31, enabling focus on executing its objectives as outlined by our CEO, Johan, earlier to build long-term shareholder value. With that, I'll turn it over to Andrew.

Thank you, Paul. As Johan mentioned earlier, one of the key opportunities ahead of us is continuing to deepen engagement across our ecosystem and provide greater transparency into how regulated capital is positioning across the digital asset market. We spent considerable effort building our brand and generating institutional visibility for DeFi Technologies and Valour in global investor circles. In 2025, we onboarded buyers from regions as far reaching as Saudi Arabia, Hong Kong, Japan, Brazil and more. This process continues. Our focus is to ensure our companies have adequate visibility in all potential markets where our existing ETPs and future UCITS, AMC and custody solutions will be distributed. We have also put great emphasis on building systems to onboard investor capital to our existing ETPs as well as any potential future structured instruments we create. Lastly, we wanted to ensure that DeFi Technologies, our platforms, our data and our operations are able to communicate their value and offer unique takes on the massive amount of data we generate to media, digital asset issuers and foundations, investors and the growing world of AI. Some of the tangible steps we have taken over the course of 2025 are as follows: in October 2025, we launched two products on the London Stock Exchange. In December 2025, we successfully listed five ETP instruments and the DeFi Technologies DEFT shares on the B3 Exchange in Brazil, which represents the first time in the history of the company we have products listed outside of Europe. These products were launched in a period of declining digital asset prices and significant market instability. In the instance of both London and Brazil, in March and April of 2026, we defined the processes and teams required to steadily attract capital to our products listed in those markets. Our capital markets distribution work is being executed with an eye towards supporting the distribution of our UCITS products. This is especially the case in Brazil and Latin America. To drive inflows and AUM growth in our core Nordic and European markets, in March 2026, Valour engaged a Chief Revenue Officer, who is focused on growing the AUM, distribution networks and institutional adoption of the full range of Valour products. In Q3 2025, we introduced our own events, marketing and communications platform that enables us to interact directly with institutional investors in a low-cost, cost-efficient manner. We have used this platform to promote our stock to institutional investors, interact with foundations, promote our ETPs, engage with our portfolio companies, discuss listing opportunities with regulators and build our mailing list, which now numbers over 40,000 entries. For the first time in the company's history, our sales, marketing and growth initiatives reach all inhabited continents. We are a global company. Our approach serves the dual purpose of promoting our core Valour products, making strategic introductions to Stillman Digital as well as helping communicate the DeFi Technologies vision and DEFT stock opportunity, which is widely available internationally given our NASDAQ uplisting. Our growth activities identify listing opportunities for our ETPs and distribution and partnership opportunities for Stillman Digital and our prospective products like UCITS. In Q4 2025, we built out a complete business intelligence system that provides granular views of our inflows, competitor analysis and product consumption. This information helps us to make better product and sales targeting decisions whilst helping us understand exactly what is selling and where. Our work with data and international expansion, events, marketing and visibility has enabled us to create innovative data-driven products like our DEFT Valour Investment Opportunity Index that have helped and we anticipate will continue to help us directly attract capital to our existing suite of 102 ETPs. Our work with our data, events and listings enables us to provide a compelling narrative to foundations and large holders of digital assets to invest them with Valour in a manner that directly increases our assets under management. This approach is appreciated by foundations and institutional investors since we are able to show how their investment provides a positive impact and signal to capital markets for their chosen digital asset. These innovations also lay the groundwork for the development of tokenized products, which will help us to introduce new pools of capital to our existing portfolio of products. Our strategic priorities remain clear. We are focused on continuing to expand distribution, entering new markets, broadening our institutional product set and strengthening the infrastructure that supports long-term monetization across the business. We believe DeFi Technologies is building not just products, but the broader institutional infrastructure and framework that will support the next phase of digital asset adoption and integration with capital markets. We are better positioned than ever to provide global visibility and execution support to the vision outlined by our CEO, Johan.

With that, I'll turn it back over to Curtis for Q&A. Curtis, I believe your audio might be unmuted. Yes. Sorry. Apologies for that. So we'll go into a few questions from the chat. First question from Niko Graseck. What do you plan to do with a big amount of cash, Johan?

What do you plan to do with a big amount of cash, Johan?

Yes. I think we have communicated consistently since we raised the money, but I'm happy to repeat that here. We obviously are focusing on organically building our business vertically as before. We are in the process right now of productifying a lot of the IP and tech we already have in the group. So we are building our own — the Valour Funds is a new business unit we are launching, Valour custody and so forth. We are basically taking technology we already have in-house and productifying it in terms of, for instance, fund units that will incorporate both usage funds and other types of funds in Europe, hedge funds for different types of strategies geared towards different types of investors. We will use some of the funds towards seeding those. We are always keeping some cash at hand for opportunistic opportunities that pop up. We have historically seen some really good opportunities, like with Stillman; we're always reviewing new opportunities like that. I should add also, we are actually monetizing that cash at the moment. It's not just lying around. We are actively working with that money. The cash also enables us to do Alpha trades in a more efficient fashion and also to go after Alpha trades we could not pursue without the cash. So there are multiple use cases from seeding, investing in our own organic growth, geographic expansion and being able to trade more efficiently. We do a lot of high ROI trading in our treasury. We are incubating trading strategies and so forth, which is a great use of cash until we need it for actually building the business. We are not using it to throw money at new markets or products where we don't see traction. We are looking for opportunities that really fit into our structure with high synergies. We will probably not do a lot of new venture capital investments; it's mainly to drive organic growth, geographic expansion and be able to trade more efficiently. We do a lot of high ROI trading in our treasury and incubating trading strategies, which is a great use of cash until we need it for building the business. We're not looking to spend aggressively on things that do not fit our strategy.

Yes. And just to provide a bit more context, last crypto winter bear market, the company was $40-plus million in debt, and we were effectively working for survival to bring the company out of those tranches. This time around, of course, with a robust balance sheet, we can be a shark or more aggressive on the potential acquisitions of cheaper assets. And then, of course, as Johan mentioned, we are using a lot of that cash to ramp up our monetization levels to increase revenue of our current core operations. So that's — we're putting it all to work, and we'll continue to look for opportunities that will continue to grow the business and add additional revenue streams.

Why was AMINA Bank taken down so much? You bought it when it was CHF 1 billion in assets and you're now holding it at cost. There has to be value creation from CHF 1 billion to CHF 2.7 billion since purchase.

Yes. I'd remind everybody, we bought AMINA in 2020-2021, which was also a large run-up in crypto. And now we're in a pullback. EV to AUM multiples have compressed. AMINA, just for everybody's benefit, is doing very well in growing its AUM; as we said, it's CHF 2.7 billion, down in the quarter in line with Bitcoin. But there has been a compression for valuations of asset management companies as we've seen in DeFi stock, and I think all crypto investors that hold the usual names are well aware of the compression in the crypto equity market. So AMINA Bank, even though it's private, is not immune to that, and our valuation reflects that. Likewise, we do carry it at fair value. So to the extent crypto prices come up, their AUM increases and there is an expansion in EV to AUM multiples, we would, of course, write it up. I would like to remind people that this is a noncash adjustment, and we're long-term holders.

I got a few questions about the NASDAQ listing status. I'll go over that really quickly. So we do have 180 days to regain compliance of trading back over $1. We do think we're extremely undervalued here and should already be trading well north of $1. If you look at the sheet here, we took effectively the average trailing P/E of Bitcoin miners, crypto exchanges and other businesses, NASDAQ-listed companies, companies on the S&P 500 and New York Stock Exchange. The average multiple that many public companies are trading at is 24x. We're trading 4.8x at a $300 million market cap on a trailing P/E basis. So we're — even if you were to cut our earnings in half, we're still tremendously undervalued. Based on our balance sheet and our revenue, we would qualify for an additional 180-day extension. It's effectively giving us well over a year to regain compliance over $1. I think we're still of the mindset that we want to continue to increase our revenue and revenue-generating capabilities and let our balance sheet and revenue speak for the share price. So it's a matter of getting our story back out there and turning around the narrative. If we have any other announcements regarding that, we will make that known to the public. So as of right now, it's just getting the name of the company out there. Hopefully, crypto prices turn around, Bitcoin and the rest of digital assets recover, and that will be much more helpful for the broader picture. Let's do another question for Andrew and Johan. Can you comment on when we can expect ETP volume and traction in Brazil? What's nice to see are the One Valour staking ETPs on Frankfurt showing some buys, for instance the ICP staking product. When can we anticipate a breakthrough in Brazil?

Thanks, Curtis. That's a great question. We have taken an approach of being very conservative and we do not want to be throwing massive amounts of capital at expansion efforts at a time of extreme macroeconomic volatility and compressed digital asset prices. Now that we have had an opportunity to see how the markets have settled, we believe that there is somewhat of a bottom associated with digital asset prices subject to the current macroeconomic environment. We've taken the approach of building the organic teams in each one of these markets so that we are ready to grow adoption of our ETPs and primarily be in a position so that we can have long-term, quality distribution partners in markets like Brazil, the U.K. and Germany. What that means is it will take time to grow, but we are already seeing growth. We just initiated our capital markets activities in these markets pretty much last month in the month of March. Had we not listed at the time that we did list, and this is a critical point, it is possible that given the change in digital asset prices that if we had delayed the listing, we may not have been eligible to list today. So it was a prudent choice to list when we did list. And now we are working through with the understanding of what the market is now with building out the teams. We have the people in place very economically in a very cost-efficient way, and we're well positioned for long-term growth. And that growth does not just factor in our ETPs. In every one of these markets, we also try to attract buyers for DeFi Technologies DEFT stock, and we have also been forward-looking to ensure that our partners in the form of Stillman, our subsidiary Stillman Digital and our future products will also have proper distribution networks. Our perspective is slow and steady, be cost efficient, focus on prudent business, and not allocate capital in a way to get a quick hit in markets that are not necessarily beneficial in the current digital asset environment. We are committed to doing a good job in all of these markets, and we're already seeing traction within the last month.

Great. I'll invite Ed Engel, analyst at Compass Point to ask a few questions. Ed?

A couple of questions for me. I think in the past you've talked about — you've got about $44 million of core OpEx if you exclude stock-based comp. What AUM level do you need to be at on a fee basis to reach breakeven?

That $44 million for 2026, we feel is now $36 million. So $30 million of operating general and admin is the target for the year, plus $6 million for the fees and commissions. So that translates into $425 million of AUM, assuming I get $11.5 million from Stillman to get the number. So $425 million at a 5.8% monetization plus $11.5 million on Stillman will get us to breakeven. So long-winded way of saying $425 million. We're fine. It's on our website for everybody. We're at $460 million as of yesterday of AUM. And that's on the Valour website. Any investor can see at any time.

That was very helpful. And then I know sometimes reporting prelim stuff and non-prelim stuff, it gets a little hairy. But at the end of the year, you disclosed that you had $138 million of net inflows in 2025. And then I think yesterday, you said $110 million net inflows. In the fourth quarter, did you still have net inflows? I know the numbers were prelim versus not, but were there still net flows in the report?

Yes, plus $6 million in Q4. $110 million is the right number for the full year. That's in our cash, yes.

Okay. Perfect. Okay.

And then Mike Grondahl from Northland.

I just want to circle back to — I think it was $44 million of OpEx that it sounds like you've reduced. Are you saying it's good to think about that level, Paul, that $36 million for 2026? What would push it higher? Any chance of pushing it lower?

Great question, Mike. We're cutting the marketing. In our MD&A, I've got the detailed breakout of the $34.2 million full year operating general and admin costs. In 2025, we did spend $8.8 million on marketing. That is most of the savings that's going to get the $34 million down to $30. Our professional fees in 2025 were $5.3 million. We also think we'll do a bit better, but I will caution people that we're still dealing with the class action lawsuit, and that's not inexpensive. So I'm not counting on large savings there. The savings will come out of the marketing spend that went along with the NASDAQ listing last year.

Okay. And then just maybe one more. The $114 million cash balance, I'm trying to understand how much of that you use in operating the business month-to-month? And how much of that is extra, if you will, or a little bit of excess capacity? Is there a way to frame that?

Mike, the $36 million that we just talked about, that's cash burn that needs to be covered. The rest of the money, the rest of it is really working capital on the balance sheet.

Got it. So Paul, another way of saying that is you do need about $100 million to run the business.

Well, okay, for everybody, just — our burn rate is $36 million. And we talked that if we have $425 million of AUM and Stillman is good for $11.5 million, we're breakeven, okay? So that's breakeven. We're at $460 million. So we're making a little bit of money even today in the bear market. Managing the AUM, and we've talked to the analysts, there's about 5% of the AUM needed in working capital. So on $400 million, that's $20 million. And why does the AUM need some working capital? It's because we're collecting mainly Swedish kronas in Sweden. We've got to convert that to U.S. dollars, get it to a crypto exchange, buy the crypto — and then similarly, when people cash out, you have to sell the crypto, USDT, send it to the broker, convert to Swedish kronas, pay them out. So there is a flow requirement. That flow is about 5%, right? So on $1 billion, ideally, you have $50 million of flow. When we raised the $100 million, that was also one of the things we put in the prospectus: more working capital so that we can grow. And then trades take working capital. So you need working capital in the business.

Mike, just additional comment. We don't need $100 million for that, and it's not linearly going up with AUM. If we double AUM, it does not mean turnover or inflows and outflows double. We might go up from $20 million to $30 million in working capital; it doesn't double with AUM. If it's $5 billion, we still don't need more than probably $50 million in working capital for the trading. We also have third-party market makers, so we have a lot of ways of managing that besides our own working capital. It's obviously nice to have, but it's not a must-have with this type of working capital. When we have access to working capital, there are other things we can pursue like different trades opportunistically, but it's not a must-have for running the business.

That's it. All right. Allen Klee from Maxim. Allen?

You talked about how you wanted to get more institutional flows and products. Could you expand on that a little bit, like the type of products that you're thinking about for '26?

Of course. The demand we have from the institutional side is basically for other vehicles — some of them can invest in ETNs like exchange-traded notes or asset-backed products, but quite a few prefer funds, for instance UCITS or other regulated fund wrappers in Europe. Many institutions can also invest via hedge funds, Cayman-based funds. So most of the demand is for those types of vehicles. Some of them even want to invest through tokens or vaults on-chain, and that's something we are exploring and developing. So it's primarily UCITS, fund structures, hedge funds and on-chain structures. We're building those right now and will soon have them available.

Would these products be available on the exchanges that you work with? Or is this outside of the exchanges?

These will firstly be marketed to fund platforms globally. UCITS funds are eligible for listings, but we will probably do that in Phase 2. There's still a bit of pushback from regulatory authorities in Europe on this area, so we don't want to push too quickly. They will first be available on fund platforms, meaning availability for retail and pensions via banks, broker-dealers and major fund platforms in Europe and globally where we can get distribution. Hedge funds are a different game where we will enter major databases of hedge funds and speak directly to fund of funds and institutional allocators. For other types of funds, there are large platforms with access for both retail and institutions.

My last question: you were talking before about the cash you need to run your business. Could you just touch on Stillman and the cash required to support trading there?

They are actually self-supporting. We don't need to support them with additional operational capital from DeFi and we are supporting them in growth initiatives they're working on to get more licenses statewise in the U.S. and to get licenses in the UAE and other areas where they already have an established base of clients. They've been self-sufficient in working capital so far. If there are more opportunities, we can allocate to them, but they are growing and also making a lot of money, so they have been self-sufficient operationally.

And now Kevin Dede from H.C. Wainwright.

So curious to know if you have an ETP launch target for this year versus the 100 or so you expected to have at the end of last year.

The quick answer to that is no, we do not have a target. Last year, it was a strategic goal to have a broad portfolio of ETPs; the broader the portfolio of single underlying assets we have, the more alpha-type trades we can pursue without market risk and the closer connection we get with foundations and the broader ecosystem within those assets. We now cover most of the high-quality top 100 assets as of today. We're not listing more just for the sake of a number. Future product launches will be driven by the type of deals we see and by high value-added product types where we can have good margins, such as leveraged ETPs, volatility-target ETPs, total return structures, dividend-like products for foundations and actively managed products including funds and certificates, and tokenized products. We're focused on qualitative, high value-added strategies and making existing products available in other vehicle types to access new pools of capital. So no quantitative target for this year.

Okay. Thanks, Johan. Paul, I may have misunderstood some of your comments. I understand no guidance. But I also thought I heard expectations for 15% to 20% growth. And I was hoping you could straighten that out for me. Are you talking about AUM, revenue, earnings? Or did I just mishear you completely?

Yes. There's some inconsistency there. We are suggesting that Stillman will grow at 15% to 20% in 2026. That is Stillman alone. We're not providing consolidated guidance for Valour given crypto prices and the uncertain outlook. We're waiting on the market before putting out consolidated expectations.

Do you think you'd be able to zero in on it about the time frame you talk about, March quarter?

Probably the summer. The March quarter is in a month; I don't personally believe much will change in a month. We understand the analyst community would prefer guidance, and to the extent we're comfortable putting out a number, we will likely do so. So likely not in a month, but we will consider guidance once we are comfortable with the market outlook.

One last thing, just on marketing, I'd like to clarify expectations on spending. I understand that you're winding it down, but you're also trying to address the institutional market. I heard comments regarding more efficient spending, but it's not clear how that happens.

Kevin, regarding marketing: as opposed to using a broad brush large expense program, we increasingly use direct engagement. For institutions we can invite allocators into a room and speak to them directly. We can find that costs a great deal less and gets us more direct interaction and helps us close deals. This is not just anecdotal — it's something we've done and are seeing results from. This allows us to be targeted and to close multi-million dollar allocations rather than spending heavily on broad campaigns that are hard to measure and may not result in committed capital. Going forward with products like UCITS, this sort of efficient distribution and direct outreach gives us a clear path to targeted institutional conversations and onboarding.

The cost for the institutional approach is much lower. We are on platforms and in databases, and we do a lot of roadshows person-to-person, which costs very little compared with large promotional campaigns we ran in the past. We're also deploying AI heavily in creation, distribution and research. The high-cost promotion campaigns we ran previously, many of which we will not repeat, were expensive and low-return. We're instead focusing on more targeted institutional outreach and efficient distribution in core markets.

I think I can equate it to more of a painting analogy: it was like throwing paint at the wall. Over the past few months we've gotten a lot leaner and more targeted in our marketing efforts. All right. I think that wraps up the analyst questions. Any final analysts that didn't get a chance? I'm not seeing any. So I think we're all set here. We'll let you go a couple of minutes early. If we didn't get to your question, please e-mail me [email protected]. I will get to it as soon as I can. Thanks again to everyone who joined. We appreciate your time and your continued support. Andrew, Johan, Paul, myself — if you have any questions, we make ourselves widely available. If you need clarification on anything, please do reach out. Thanks again, everybody. Enjoy the rest of your day, and we'll chat with you again in a few weeks.