Earnings Call
Full House Resorts Inc (FLL)
Earnings Call Transcript - FLL Q3 2025
Operator, Operator
Greetings. Welcome to Full House Resorts Third Quarter 2025 Earnings Call. Please note this conference is being recorded. I will now turn the conference over to Adam Campbell, Corporate Controller. Thank you. You may begin.
Adam Campbell, Corporate Controller
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to our third quarter earnings call. As always, before we begin, we remind you that today's conference call may contain forward-looking statements that we're making under the safe harbor provision of federal security laws. I would also like to remind you that the company's actual results could differ materially from the anticipated results in these forward-looking statements. Please see today's press release under the caption Forward-Looking Statements for the discussion of risks that may affect our results. Also, we may make reference to non-GAAP measures such as adjusted EBITDA. For a reconciliation of these measures, please see our website as well as the various press releases that we issue. Lastly, we are also broadcasting this conference call at fullhouseresorts.com, where you can find today's earnings release as well as all of our SEC filings. That said, we're ready to go, Lewis.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
Thank you, Adam. We had a very strong quarter. Revenues increased to $78 million from $75.7 million in the same quarter last year. It's important to note that last year's figures included $1.5 million from Stockman's, which was sold in April of this year, so revenue growth on a like-for-like basis was 5%. Adjusted EBITDA grew 26% to $14.8 million. This figure would have been closer to $15.2 million, were it not for a few unusual items. The strong growth this quarter was driven by American Place in Illinois and Chamonix in Colorado, both of which are still ramping up and can expect continued profit growth. Specifically at American Place, our Temporary Casino is performing exceptionally well, achieving record revenue and profitability, with revenues increasing by 14% to $32 million in the third quarter. Adjusted property EBITDA rose 16% to $9 million. We continue to attract a significant number of first-time guests to American Place, resulting in our database growing to over 115,000 individuals. The rate of new sign-ups has remained strong, which is encouraging. This growing recognition should enable our Temporary American Place facility to reach higher levels of profitability in 2026. We have consistently stated that the temporary American Place could achieve a run rate EBITDA of $50 million, while its larger permanent facility could potentially earn $100 million. Our confidence in these projections remains steadfast. Regarding the permanent American Place facility, we're making progress. We recently obtained unanimous site approval from the Waukegan City Council. In the background, we’re also refining the project, which has led to a budget reduction from $325 million to $302 million, excluding capitalized interest. The permanent casino project is exciting, with total square footage more than doubling and the number of slots increasing by around 40%, along with table games rising by about 90%. It will be the closest casino to over 1 million people and situated between two major traffic routes in Northern Chicagoland. To illustrate, it’s akin to having only two casinos in the Las Vegas locals market and considering the earnings from those. In Lake County alone, American Place will be the sole full-service casino catering to more than 700,000 people. Lake County is one of the richest counties in the country, giving us strong demographics. Our permanent American Place project presents an exceptional opportunity with a high potential return on investment, and we look forward to starting its construction. On a related note, we've seen some inaccurate opinions about the possibility of a new casino in Kenosha, Wisconsin. To clarify, these discussions have been ongoing for about 30 years since the 1990s. The main opposition comes from the large Native American casino in downtown Milwaukee, which is closer to Kenosha than we are. That project faces significant uncertainties and several obstacles, requiring both federal and state approval, and we anticipate lengthy legal challenges. Furthermore, the project, which has decreased in size over the years and is now aimed at the local Kenosha market, has yet to be constructed. Even if it received full approvals today, it would still take several years before it opens. Realistically, if it ever obtains all the necessary approvals, it would likely be several years off. More importantly, the majority of our guests at American Place do not come from Wisconsin; they are largely local. Our target markets are concentrated around the population density nearest to us—heading south toward O'Hare Airport, east toward the lake, and west where there are no competing full-service casinos. Moving north to Wisconsin, the population density thins out until reaching Milwaukee, so most of our guests come from areas that would pass by our casino before reaching Kenosha. Our advantageous geographic location in a wealthy county is a substantial benefit. With our proximity and quality at the upcoming permanent American Place casino, we’re positioned to win that competitive battle most times. Turning to Chamonix, we've made significant progress under our new management team, which came on board in April. Revenues increased by over 7%. Adjusted property EBITDA improved by $2.8 million from last year, reaching $2.1 million this quarter compared to negative $0.7 million last year. Our table games revenue is thriving, up 53% compared to last year's third quarter and up 296% compared to the third quarter of 2023. This growth is supported by our highest-tier players. Slot revenues increased by 6% and 161% over those same periods. Our marketing initiatives continue to enhance as we implement more targeted advertising approaches and test various promotions for effectiveness. We also have a large ballroom that we can use for entertainment, a new amenity to Cripple Creek, and we continue to discover what types of entertainment work best in attracting our ideal guests. Those efforts are helping us achieve new property records, including a new property record that we hit in September for slot coin-in in a single day. Our high-frequency guests are coming more often. In the month of September, the number of visits from high-frequency guests were up more than 33% from the prior year. Slot revenues from those high-frequency guests more than doubled. Rated slot play as a whole was up 4.5%. The database is also showing decent growth. In a typical month, we're adding about 3,000 new customers into our database. Chamonix is a property that Colorado players are slowly discovering and are returning to enjoy. Regarding our group business, that's starting to pick up steam, too. We have a verbal agreement for a group in the state. We're in the process of inking it now, so we won't give you the name of it quite yet. They hold an annual event every year around this time. This would be for next year's conference. In their ideal scenario, that group would take up 1,200 room nights over 3 days or every single room in our hotel plus spillover into the rest of the city. Their guarantee will be for a smaller figure than that, but it's still a very important group for us to host. The group is made up of important political and business leaders from throughout the region, and we're, of course, thrilled to welcome them in a year. Our ideal group size is smaller than that, between 100 and 150 attendees. Within 500 miles of us, we estimate there are up to 4,000 conferences that fit that profile. We are starting small with our expectations, targeting 25 events of that size next year. Over the next 3 years, we think we can have a pretty full group business of about 55 events per year or about 1 per week. On the cost side, we meaningfully improved efficiency in the building. We reduced the average number of FTEs from 373 in the first quarter of this year to 325 during the third quarter. That's a reduction of 13% despite being in the busier summer season in the third quarter. We have targeted additional areas for efficiency and expect to see those benefits in the upcoming winter season. Ultimately, our greatest opportunity remains under-penetrated Colorado Springs market. We estimate that between 12% and 15% of Colorado Springs residents visited us or any casino at all in Cripple Creek in the last year. That is an extremely low number. In the last year, we had about 51,000 unique guests at our own property. That is a number that can easily double. A pleasant surprise to us is the number of guests coming from the Denver market. 30% of our guests in the last year are coming from the Denver area. When we originally underwrote the investment in Chamonix, we focused largely on the 1 million people that live in Colorado Springs, Pueblo and Canyon City. We view Denver largely as gravy. The reality is that Douglas County in South Denver is as close or closer to us than Black Hawk. It's one of the fastest-growing counties in the state. It's quite wealthy, with median household incomes of about $145,000, and it has 400,000 people. With Douglas County, our feeder market is effectively 40% larger than what we underwrote to. 15% of our guests aren't coming from Colorado Springs or Denver at all. They're coming from places like Texas, which has nonstop flights and is viewed as the Texas heat. Chamonix is the 13th project that we've worked on in our careers, and every single one has exceeded the run rate EBITDA that we promised investors. Casino ramps are always difficult to predict. Casino run rates tend to not be. We believe that Chamonix will continue our streak of successful projects. It's only been fully open for about a year, and we're beginning to make great strides. The green shoots are pretty abundant. Looking at the other properties, Rising Star and Silver Slipper were essentially flat on a combined basis. Grand Lodge, which is a pretty small part of the company at this point, was affected by renovation disruption at the Hyatt Lake Tahoe that houses our casino. Then on the balance sheet side, we had about $40 million of liquidity at the end of the quarter. At this point, there's extremely little CapEx for us until we start construction on our permanent American Place Casino. Our Illinois operations alone pay for the interest expense on our current debt. Of course, those Illinois operations continue to ramp. I went through a lot. Dan, do you want to add anything else there?
Daniel Lee, CFO
I think you covered it pretty well. Let's take questions.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
All right. Let's do Q&A.
Operator, Operator
Our first question is from David Bain with Texas Capital Securities.
David Bain, Analyst
I know you mentioned, Lewis, and in the press release, you all mentioned 15% of the Colorado households visited Cripple Creek last year. Kind of wondering what the number should be in a normal scenario as the primary feeder and given the distance, what that math would look like if you were to get there? I mean, if we get a 30%, looking at the mix that Lewis mentioned, is that like 60% up in revenue? Or is there anything that you can give us there? I know there's a lot of variables, but trying to big picture that comment.
Daniel Lee, CFO
Yes. Well, there's a lot of things. I mean we know the gaming per capita, which is another way to get to it, is about half of what it should be for that sort of market. That would suggest it should be 30%, but even that is on the low side. Harrah's used to provide an annual data book every year that had a lot of data. In there, they said about 1/3 of Americans aren't interested in gambling because they were math majors in high school or something, right? But 2/3 do view gaming as a normal entertainment venue. If you take that as the outside number that maybe 2/3 of people would visit once a year, certainly half is a possibility. I mean if I look at Las Vegas and say what percentage of the people here walk through a casino over the course of a year, it's got to be 95%, right? I know that, that number is low. I'm going to do some work and try to back into what it is at the Silver Slipper, for example, like what percentage of Slidell visits we could probably get there. We get to that number because we're a significant chunk of the market. We know how many unique people we have. We know how many times they come per year. Using that as a proxy for the market, we end up with actually less than 15%. You get about 12% or 13% of the adults in Colorado Springs are visiting Cripple Creek over the course of the year. Now some people are going to Black Hawk, some people are flying to Las Vegas. When you say what percentage of adults are actually gambling, it's probably in the high teens.
David Bain, Analyst
Just as a quick follow-up to that one. The flow-through on additional revenue at this point.
Daniel Lee, CFO
Everything is open. We don't have any amenities not yet opened. In fact, we're going the opposite way. We've sharply curtailed overtime, which is down pretty dramatically from what it used to be. We're focusing on ways to be more efficient with the payroll and trying to rightsize the payroll for the revenues we have, not the revenues we think we will have. At the same time, we're growing revenues. I think our expense structure is going down going into the off-season, and I think it will continue. Our revenues are continuing to grow. We're trying to size the payroll for what we have and then continue to grow the revenues. Those 2 factors will result in improvements in profitability, obviously. Frankly, we have very easy comparisons in the fourth and first quarters. I think I almost don't even want to look at the historic numbers. I want to get to comfortable profitability in 2026 and then build from there.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
Yes, David, you likely understand that when discussing flow-through, we need to consider gaming taxes, which operate on a graduated tax rate, so expect low to mid-teens there. Additionally, there is some marketing reinvestment directed towards players, along with potential extra labor costs depending on whether we are referring to slots or tables. Beyond that, the flow-through is quite significant; we could be looking at easily 70% to 80%.
Daniel Lee, CFO
In this industry, turnover tends to be quite high. In this particular market, it's even higher than usual due to its remote location in the mountains. This situation can actually be advantageous because we don't have to lay off employees who depend on their jobs. If someone isn't contributing effectively, we will certainly let them go, but we have been mainly reducing payroll by not replacing those who leave, which has been a significant part of our strategy.
David Bain, Analyst
Then my final question is about staying on track for the August '27 American Place permanent. I believe you mentioned that you would like to complete financing by the first quarter of next year at the latest. Does that timing affect the phasing compared to closing something this quarter? If you end up needing an extension for Illinois, I think most would agree that you would likely receive it. How does that process work and how is the message conveyed back to investors?
Daniel Lee, CFO
We've been in discussions with our main bondholders and other potential investors to determine the best way forward. Legally and ethically, we represent our shareholders and aim to find the most effective financing method for their benefit, while also considering our bondholders and other stakeholders. To clarify, there is no strict deadline for opening by August 2027; rather, it's about how long we can operate the temporary setup. We won't compromise on user rates just to meet that deadline. If necessary, we could end up paying employees for a month or two without them working, but we don't expect that will be the case. We contribute over $25 million annually in state gaming taxes and employ more than 500 people. We have already received one extension, and obtaining another one requires legislative approval, which we could pursue in the first quarter, either this year or a year from now. The law is in place to ensure we actually build a permanent facility rather than remain in the temporary structure indefinitely. We are committed to building the permanent site. Recently, I visited Wynn Creek and the new Hollywood, both of which are performing well, and we plan to build something even better. We have committed a total investment of $500 million, with $170 million already spent on the temporary site. The costs for the permanent facility, including capitalized interest, will fulfill the $500 million requirement. While it would be great to open by August 2027, if it doesn’t happen, we will secure an extension and open when we are ready. If we can secure funding in the next few months, we can still aim for that August opening. The project is complex but manageable; however, if the financial markets are uncooperative, we may experience some delays, which wouldn't be catastrophic.
Operator, Operator
Our next question is from Jordan Bender with Citizens.
Jordan Bender, Analyst
Maybe to just continue on the prior conversation. If I look at your bonds and kind of how they're trading right now, it's telling us something. Have you kind of thought any differently? Or can you maybe just update us your thinking in terms of if you had to go look for financing, potentially using a REIT. There's been a couple of transactions in the last couple of weeks. Just if those look any more favorable than they have historically or I think maybe land leases could be on the table or historically have been on the table as well. Is there any change to how you're thinking about potentially financing the permanent at all?
Daniel Lee, CFO
We have a couple of issues to address. Regarding the bonds, we suspect that someone may have shorted them, and at least one analyst has been criticizing us consistently. This created a focus on the Kenosha deal, which has been in discussion for decades without much progress. The two Indian tribes involved have been in conflict for a long time, and that situation is ongoing, but it doesn’t significantly affect us. An analyst's comments may influence the bonds temporarily, but it seems absurd given the low trading volume of those bonds, which likely doesn’t represent the overall situation. We would prefer the bonds to perform better since that would improve things for us. Simultaneously, we are exploring land leases and REITs. We've noticed increased competition among REITs making them more aggressive than in the past, although we still prefer the bond market for our financing needs as we aim for simplicity. This morning, I came across the Blake Sartini situation and felt somewhat envious. If we were to take the company private, I wouldn't be conducting this earnings call. It's a clever strategy—he owns the real estate and is selling it to a REIT while transforming into an operating company, combined with a significant cash commitment from a major bank, and then he goes private. That approach is appealing, though I’m not sure we can achieve something similar. Nonetheless, we are open to exploring various options. Just to clarify, we are not currently considering going private, so there's no need for concern. I just wanted to acknowledge that I've noticed the news while preparing for this earnings call, and those tough questions about Kenosha have me feeling a bit envious of Blake Sartini. We are indeed evaluating all possibilities.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
Yes. Look, I think there's certainly an eagerness from some of the sources that you mentioned, Jordan. I think those are 2 of several options that are in front of us. Stay tuned. Ultimately want to do something that's cost-effective, but we've got a pretty big menu of potential items in front of us.
Daniel Lee, CFO
One of the other things I'd add is I think our second quarter, which wasn't a good quarter, unnerved a lot of people, and it caused us to really start blocking and tackling on just simple things like what's the payroll, what's the cost of goods sold? What's the little, little things like our cost of goods sold in Colorado was inordinately high. We created a warehouse space where the more expensive alcohol and so on are kept on lock and key and so on. There's a lot of stuff we're doing that is really just blocking and tackling casino operating management, and you're seeing those results in this quarter, and you'll continue to see it in future quarters. I think that will get people more comfortable, like on a trailing 12-month basis, Colorado lost money. On a prospective 12-month basis, Colorado will make money. That changes the leverage profile quite a bit. Although, it's a little. People look at it and say, well, on a trailing 12-month basis compared to the amount of debt you're going to have, guys, we are somewhat of a development company. You really have to look at what we will be when we open American Place because otherwise, you're ignoring the use of proceeds of the new debt. The conversation gets easier when you have better earnings, and we're pretty happy with the earnings we just reported.
Jordan Bender, Analyst
Lewis, I just want to follow-up. You said there were maybe several one-time unusual items in the quarter. Is there anything major to call out there? I guess, are those just truly one-time and won't kind of happen again looking forward?
Lewis Fanger, CEO
The main factor is that we highlighted in the last call that we made significant changes to the Chamonix management team. Efforts to recruit new talent and relocate staff accounted for about half of the changes discussed during the call. We also incurred some severance costs and had a few smaller expenses related to the properties. The key point is the shift in leadership at Chamonix; for instance, our new Marketing Director has only been in the role for two months, so there are still many positive developments ahead.
Ryan Sigdahl, Analyst
I want to stay on Chamonix. New general manager, a lot of new personnel you just mentioned. It seems like a lot of the focus has been on, call it, operational improvements, cost efficiencies, the cost side of the business. Curious how you feel about the people, the infrastructure, just where things are at from the fixed cost side of the business, where the focus can potentially shift more to revenue growth initiatives there?
Daniel Lee, CFO
The focus is on both controlling costs and increasing revenues, but generating revenue takes time. To build revenue, we need to hire skilled marketing professionals. For instance, we are changing our advertising agency and modifying our approach by doing more digital marketing and being more targeted. This will yield benefits over time. We have already made significant changes, including hiring more casino hosts and expanding our sales and marketing team from one person to three. These efforts will contribute to future growth. While adjusting payroll can be done quickly, we will not achieve our goals with Chamonix solely by cutting costs. We understand the need to grow revenues and are committed to both strategies, though cost-cutting offers more immediate advantages.
Ryan Sigdahl, Analyst
Just maybe on the marketing, etc., but you mentioned conference pipeline, you mentioned one potentially next year kind of building that. Do you have the personnel infrastructure? I guess what really goes into building a conference business as you look forward? Is it the people? Is it relationships? Is it just boots on the ground takes time? Can you walk through exactly what you guys are doing and why you have confidence you can grow that besides just kind of putting a radius around with the number of conferences?
Daniel Lee, CFO
Yes. There are many different strategies we can employ, but the key one is attracting more day trip visitors from Colorado Springs. Our situation is somewhat similar to Atlantic City, where each casino has to have a hotel due to regulations, and they strive to fill those rooms successfully. We have a population of 1 million people nearby, which is significant. For instance, we discovered during focus groups that while the drive isn't very long, some people find it a bit daunting because it runs alongside a cliff. However, there's an alternative route that has recently been paved, offering a safer and more pleasant experience. By taking this back road, you can reach Cripple Creek from a different direction, which people may find more appealing. We've noticed that this route offers better cell service as well, and both roads are scenic. We're also adjusting our website to encourage visitors to take this more enjoyable route, especially in inclement weather, highlighting its charm. Building our day trip business from Colorado Springs is crucial, and we want to convey that our destination is inviting and worth the visit. The meeting and convention spaces we've developed are another important strategy, as filling midweek days is essential for our business. We have created some of the best meeting facilities among Colorado casinos, and though others have decent spaces, none in Cripple Creek compare to what we offer. We've brought on three skilled individuals who specialize in securing these bookings, which can often take months or even years in advance. Currently, we're in the process of signing a contract for a large convention planned for next year, where we will be the primary host providing most of the accommodations. Looking at competitors like Monarch, which we consider a benchmark, they have 500 rooms, and their revenue significantly outweighs ours. They've been successful in drawing day trip visitors, highlighting the importance of this type of business for filling our rooms. We aim to attract not only local visitors but also high rollers from various places. Notably, 15% of our clientele comes from Pueblo, a city of about 200,000 people located south of Colorado Springs, which represents good market penetration. To deepen relationships there, we plan to dedicate a host to Pueblo and organize events to engage with potential customers. Additionally, we will participate in local events like the Colorado State Fair, where we'll set up a booth to promote our casino and offer incentives to attract visitors. Overall, by managing our expenses and steadily increasing our revenue, we believe we can achieve significant profitability in a relatively short time.
Operator, Operator
Our next question is from Chad Beynon with Macquarie.
Chad Beynon, Analyst
I wanted to ask about Indiana. There was a gaming market study recently. Kind of going back to the age-old question that you and the team have talked about in terms of is the state of Indiana maximizing or properly offering casinos in the right locations. I know you've always talked about improving the value of that asset. Can you talk about if the parties that be on the other side are maybe a little bit more receptive at this time to potentially moving an asset to a higher population area and if you guys could still potentially have exposure to that opportunity?
Daniel Lee, CFO
Yes, it requires state laws and must go through the legislature for approval from the governor. When Indiana legalized casinos 30 years ago, they strategically placed them near the borders to attract revenue from Illinois, Ohio, and Kentucky, all of which now have their own casinos. The initial locations aren’t optimal for maximizing jobs or tax revenues. However, there is a precedent as they allowed two riverboats on Lake Michigan to relocate, one of which became the Hard Rock Casino in Gary, now leading the state with $25 million to $30 million in monthly revenue. The other riverboat in Terre Haute is also performing well. The legislature authorized a gaming study by the Gaming Commission to analyze the impact on state tax revenues as well as existing casinos and horse tracks if a casino were allowed to move to two prime locations. One of these locations is Indianapolis, which has the largest population in Indiana, yet currently lacks a casino. Caesars operates two racetracks nearby, but a casino in Indianapolis would still be advantageous for the state. The second proposed location is Fort Wayne, the state’s second-largest city, which also lacks a casino. This could slightly affect the tribal casino in Battle Creek, which our company established 12 years ago, but the majority of new revenue would come from increased gambling by local residents. The study is available, and we currently operate the lowest revenue-generating casino in the state according to Widemark, which has a special low-revenue tax tier that we may be the sole occupant of right now. If we were to relocate, we would provide significant benefits to the state by shifting to a higher tax rate. Interestingly, we have community support where we currently are—we pay around $1 million annually in taxes to Rising Sun and have assured them we would double that if we are allowed to move. Additionally, for employees who might not choose to go with us, we would offer one year’s severance. We aim to avoid opposition from our current community, which seems to understand our position and would likely welcome the move.
Chad Beynon, Analyst
Great, Dan. Very comprehensive. Then Lewis, you talked about the 16% growth in the quarter at the temp. That puts trailing 12-month EBITDA for the property a little over $32 million. You talked about growing this to $50 million run rate. Is that just kind of running the revenue at the same rate you're running right now, getting the flow-through? Or are there any other strategies that you'd be willing to share in terms of getting closer to that $50 million run rate?
Lewis Fanger, CEO
Yes, you're thinking about it correctly. We're seeing a natural ramp-up in our growth. While I don't expect us to reach $50 million in 2026, I believe we have a strong chance to be in the $40 million range next year. By the time we open the permanent casino, we are hopeful to be approaching that $50 million mark. Our database growth remains steady, and our revenue growth continues to be significant. September was somewhat unusual, but I anticipate consistent growth moving forward. A lot of local residents are still unaware of the casino in Waukegan, and the daily number of people discovering it is quite high, which is positive for us. When new casinos were discussed, local media primarily focused on the downtown location, not Waukegan, which has led to the assumption that awareness will grow naturally over time.
Daniel Lee, CFO
We also added a poker room in August. Lewis mentioned that September was a bit of an anomaly. Recognize September this year did not have Labor Day weekend, whereas last year, it had a good chunk of the weekend. Otherwise, that property has been up in revenues and EBITDA every single quarter since it opened 2.5 years ago. Trailing 12 months might be $32 million, but the run rate today is clearly in the $35 million, $36 million. I mean it was $9 million in the quarter. It's not a very seasonal market. I think the run rate today is higher than 32. We probably hit something with a 4 on the front of it in 2026, and we'll be at a run rate of 50 by the time we get to August of 2027, I guess, is what Lewis is saying.
Operator, Operator
Our next question is from Colin Mansfield with CBRE Group.
Colin Mansfield, Analyst
I wanted to drill in a little bit on the table game strategy up at Chamonix. Maybe help us bridge a little bit the nice numbers that you gave us earlier and what you're seeing in terms of table revenue growth with sort of what the state data is telling us? Because it seems like you guys are growing share. Just based on kind of what the data is telling us and what you guys are reporting. Maybe what's working there? Maybe what's the status on the go-forward strategy here for the table games?
Daniel Lee, CFO
We have the best table games area in the state, and the 300 guestrooms contribute to that. Century, located across the street, has closed their table games, which has benefitted us. A few weeks ago, during an entertainment event, our table games were very busy. I checked out the Brass, which is known for their table games, but there were only a few players there, indicating that we've taken a significant portion of the table game market. The Golden Nugget is our main competitor for table games, and they manage their property well. There's also the Double Eagle, which has been struggling since one of its owners passed away, and it's currently in probate. This situation gives us a larger share of the market. Although the Golden Nugget is a solid competitor and Triple Crown runs well, the other competitors are smaller and less significant. We expect to continue gaining market share and growing the overall market. Most of the growth in state revenues this year is coming from Cripple Creek, and we play a big role in that. The softer performance of Double Eagle may be masking some of our success. They aren't doing much marketing right now, which has allowed us to capture more business. Eventually, someone will likely buy Double Eagle and renovate it, which would be beneficial for the market and us in the long run. They have 170 guest rooms but need significant refurbishment, which will likely happen within the next five years.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
Yes. The table games business currently accounts for approximately 11% of our total gaming revenues, up from about 8% a year ago at the same time. We have seen growth in that sector and I believe it has the potential to double. This is partly due to our introduction of new games; we still have the only mini box pit in town at this time.
Daniel Lee, CFO
We introduced the first Broad table in town, and we are the only ones offering it. We installed one of the electronic tables a few weeks ago, which was previously owned by Interblock. It resembles a craft table, but legally, it's classified as a slot machine, which may impact the numbers a bit. This setup allows for running a craft game with just one person or even no personnel at all, and it's become quite popular, especially in the stations casinos here in Las Vegas. Additionally, we added table games at Bronco Billy's, which is only open on weekends and features lower table limits. Our table capacity has increased significantly, and I believe we will keep expanding that. However, we must acknowledge that our table game business is still just a small fraction compared to what is achieved at Monarch, Ameristar, or the Lodge. There is considerable potential for growth ahead.
Colin Mansfield, Analyst
Then maybe for my follow-up, if we can stay on Chamonix for a second. Lewis, if you can indulge me because I know you said estimating ramps is difficult, but now that you guys feel like there's probably a good fully baked cost structure at Chamonix with a lot of the changes that Brandon and the team have enacted. What should we expect in terms of EBITDA over the next few quarters, knowing that we are kind of going into the seasonally slower period and a lot of the good flow-through that you guys can expect will really probably shine during the big busier season as we get through the winter? Maybe help us think through what we should be looking for from an EBITDA trajectory there over the next few quarters?
Daniel Lee, CFO
We are experiencing strong year-over-year growth and improved results, but I'm reluctant to specify a figure. We are focused on increasing revenues and managing costs, and I am confident that we will achieve a solid profit in 2026. Our total investment, which includes the acquisition of Bronco Billy's, is nearing $300 million. It will take us about 2 to 4 years to see a reasonable return on this investment. However, these assets are built to last, and I believe they will serve us well for the next 25 years.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
Yes, I agree with Dan. Considering the challenging ramp-up and the new team that is still adjusting, including several recent hires, I won’t provide a specific number. To put it a different way, over the past year, EBITDA in the building was negative $4.8 million. What is often overlooked is that turning that negative $4.8 million into a positive $10 million, $15 million, or $20 million in the near future represents a $15 million to $25 million change in total EBITDA. That’s significant. Even small figures can lead to substantial effects on overall growth. We are very optimistic about that project and expect to see impressive numbers in 2026.
Daniel Lee, CFO
Yes. Even in the given direction of the property, we don't go to them and say, look, this is the number we need you to meet. It's like we need you to make progress and grow the revenues, control the costs, and we'll get there. Because if you say, oh, we want you to make $15 million or $20 million right away. You probably could by closing valet parking, by closing the spa and just clamping down on all costs, but you'd be giving up the opportunity to get it to making $30 million or $40 million someday. There's still a lot of costs we incur to try to get to a higher place. The strategy is to keep making progress and exactly what that falls out to as long as we are up year-over-year comfortably, we're making progress.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
We recently had an investor who wanted to visit the property on a weekend, so we met him on a Saturday. When he arrived, he expressed some concerns he had heard, like the road being difficult to navigate. However, he found the backroads easy. Then, he mentioned hearing that our establishment was too upscale for attracting good customers, but he was pleased to see that this is precisely the kind of clientele we want. The place was vibrant and busy. Sometimes, people overlook that as casinos grow, they initially build the business for peak days like Friday and Saturday, gradually expanding to include Sunday and even Thursdays. Over time, we will develop a customer base to fill the entire week. While we haven't filled the entire week yet, we have made significant strides towards that goal. A year from now, we will see even more progress, and in two years, it will be even better. We're very optimistic about our current position. We likely have time for two quick questions, Dan.
Operator, Operator
Our next question is from John DeCree with CBRE.
John DeCree, Analyst
Just one for me. Talked a lot about Chamonix and Waukegan, but you've made some management changes not that long ago at Silver Slipper. Dan, I think I recall, you were kind of hoping for some improvements there. I think maybe hopefully EBITDA trough last year. Can you just give us an update on kind of what you're seeing at Silver Slipper and how progress is going there?
Daniel Lee, CFO
Silver Slipper is making progress. I mean, the numbers get a little distorted because there was some inefficient marketing. We were giving away buffets and rooms to people who don't gamble enough. We've cut that back. It's not showing the revenue growth, but it's had decent trends in profitability. I think that we're pretty happy with that. Rising Star was a little more challenged. We said the 2 were about flat. The one was carrying the other a little bit. Listen, the Silver Slipper can grow from below $15 million to about $15 million a year in EBITDA. It's not going to suddenly jump to $30 million. Again, blocking and tackling and doing basic stuff. Rising Sun is more complicated. It's a difficult market, very competitive. We have a big footprint there. The fact that we are looking to relocate it makes people question it. It's a challenged place to run, but it has a loyal clientele and it's making progress, too. We have our niche and it does okay. Then at Tahoe, the owner, Larry Ellison, who acquired the Hyatt a couple of years ago, has started a refurbishment. The first thing they did was ripped down everything along the beach, which was about dozen or 15 high-end villas that were right along the beach and the largest restaurant in the entire Hyatt chain and their meeting room space. Now we're in the high-rise that's across the street. Without easy beach access and without those villa suites, there were gamblers who we would normally invite up in the summer and would want to stay in those suites, and they're not as prone to come when those suites aren't available. That affected us a bit in the quarter. It's not a very meaningful part of the company at this point, but he is replacing them with new suites and a new restaurant, and I think it's going to be way nicer than it even was. It was already nice, but the location is spectacular. Now there's going to be a spectacular building mirroring the location, and that should be good for us in the long term.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
We had a good start in October at Silver Slipper. We're optimistic about continuing this trend, and I anticipate some growth in EBITDA during the fourth quarter. Overall, it's performing according to our expectations.
Daniel Lee, CFO
We've hired some good new members of the team. We have a new Head of table games who's introducing some things that are creative and good. We have a new food and beverage manager who we hired from Treasure Chest, who's very confident and doing well. It is a new team forming together and I think it will have good results in the future, but this is a cash cow for us.
Operator, Operator
Our final question is from Ricardo Chinchilla with Deutsche Bank.
Luis Chinchilla, Analyst
I was hoping if you could give us a little bit of a sense of how the seasonality of the market is going to impact the ramp-up? I know that you guys have made very important progress on the cost-cutting side. What should we expect for the fourth quarter and maybe in the first quarter, given that the market is very seasonal?
Daniel Lee, CFO
Well, last year, we lost money in both the fourth quarter and first quarter. I hope is to not lose money in those quarters this year. Now, the third quarter is always going to be the seasonally strongest quarter. We made $2.1 million in this quarter, but next summer, it should be much stronger than that. I would expect longer term, the third quarter would always be 40% or 50% of the earnings in the year. The year-over-year comparisons will be easy. We are cutting the cost going into the off-season. Our revenues in November will not be what they were in July, and so our costs can't be either nor do they need to be. I mean, you staff your restaurants and your table games in particular, based on the amounts of play, and so there is a natural tendency to have fewer people in the winter than there is in the summer.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
I'll add in case it helps you. The fourth quarter of last year, which is an extremely easy comp, EBITDA was minus $3.4 million. You should look for meaningful improvement off of that. The first quarter of 2025 EBITDA was minus $2.3 million. That was under the old management team, and you should expect improvement from that as well.
Daniel Lee, CFO
Yes. Look, I'm trying to make it profitable in those quarters. I don't think it's going to make a lot of money in those quarters, but we'd like it to stay in the black, and that sets a foundation for a good 2026.
Luis Chinchilla, Analyst
If I could ask one last question, could you share your thoughts on the likelihood of getting approval for the process at this stage? Considering the challenges the trial faced with the contract approval, do you think the project will retain its original size? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Daniel Lee, CFO
There are always people trying to develop casinos at any given time. It seems like everyone with any Native American ancestry is looking to set up a casino. Most of these attempts don't succeed due to numerous obstacles. You need approval from the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and in this case, the tribe doesn’t even reside in the area where they want to establish the casino; they live a couple of hundred miles away. The tribe is hesitant to spend the money required for lobbyists, so they involved the Seminoles as a management company to navigate the Bureau of Indian Affairs, especially under the Trump administration, which has been less supportive of tribal gaming compared to the Biden era. During Biden's administration, the Secretary of the Interior was from a New Mexico tribe, which facilitated approvals, whereas Trump appears less favorable toward tribal casinos due to competition concerns. Historically, tribal casinos tend to pay lower taxes, but they often come in as the highest bidders for casino acquisitions. Although we're not currently looking to sell the company, any future sale would likely involve an Indian tribe. The process of getting approval from the Bureau of Indian Affairs is quite challenging, and there’s also the need to gain the governor's endorsement, which is uncertain. Meanwhile, the Pottawatomie tribe is earning significant revenue from their casino in Milwaukee, and they have teams of lobbyists and lawyers, which has previously delayed our plans by a year due to lawsuits. Kenosha is essentially an extension of suburban Milwaukee, and I expect strong opposition if they try to push this forward. Overall, I believe it’s unlikely that this project will materialize anytime soon, and if it does, it would take years and still not hold much significance for us due to the distance.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
I'm going to take it a step further. I think inflation between now and the time that casino happens, if it were to happen, is more than overshadows what we would lose to that casino. When somebody is looking to short the stock or short the bonds and create a negative story, they'll go find out that Joe Blow wants to put a casino in Libertyville and they'll say, Hey, Joe Blow, he was Native American 35 years ago, he might get the sign. They're not. I think it's unlikely.
Operator, Operator
That will conclude our question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the floor back over to Lewis for closing remarks.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
Dan, you want?
Daniel Lee, CFO
No, I don't want to leave it on that note because Kenosha is not significant to our future. We just had a good quarter and I believe we're forming a solid foundation. We have favorable comparisons ahead, and I expect more positive quarters. We're working on financing the permanent casino, but we are not in a desperate situation. When the circumstances align properly, we will proceed. I hope that happens soon, but if it takes a bit longer, that’s fine as well. Ultimately, we are focused on building long-term shareholder value. It's surprising that our stock is currently so low, but this will pass. I recall during the pandemic when our stock dropped below $1, which became a great buying opportunity. I feel optimistic that we will be just fine. I'll end my remarks here.
Lewis Fanger, CEO
Thank you. Thank you, everyone.
Operator, Operator
Thank you. This will conclude today's conference. You may disconnect at this time, and thank you for your participation.