Transcript
Good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining the GEE Group Conference Call regarding our Fiscal Second Quarter. There is a slide presentation on the web. It's also on our website. In this Investor Presentation, you can click through the slides if you like. We are not going to go over those slides today, but we will have follow-up questions at the end of this presentation, and you can submit those electronically as you have logged in to the site for doing that. Today, we're going to cover our fiscal second quarter and first half ended March 31, 2022. I'm Derek Dewan, Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of GEE Group. I will be hosting today's call. And joining me as the Co-Presenter is Kim Thorpe, our Senior Vice President and Chief Financial Officer. Thank you all for joining us today. It's our pleasure to share with you GEE Group's results for the fiscal 2022 second quarter and first half ended March 31, 2022, and provide you with our outlook for the second half of our 2022 fiscal year. Some comments that Kim and I will make may be considered forward-looking, including predictions and estimates about our future performance. These represent our current judgments of what the future holds and are subject to risks and uncertainties that actual results may differ materially from our forward-looking statements. These risks and uncertainties are described in Monday's earnings press release and our most recent Form 10-Q and other SEC filings under the captions Cautionary Statements Regarding Forward-looking Statements and Forward-looking Statements Safe Harbor. We assume no obligation to update the statements made on today's call. During this presentation, we will also talk about some non-GAAP financial measures. Reconciliations and explanations of these measures are included in the earnings press release. Our presentation of financial amounts and related amounts, including growth rates, margins and trends are rounded or based upon rounded amounts. For purposes of this call and all amounts, percentages and related items presented are approximations accordingly. For your convenience, our prepared remarks for today's call are available in the Investor Center of our website www.geegroup.com. With that business behind us, I'm very happy to report that we achieved outstanding results for the second quarter and first half of our 2022 fiscal year beginning with net income of $1.1 million or $0.01 per diluted share and $17.8 million or $0.15 per diluted share, respectively. Consolidated revenues were $39.6 million and $82.5 million, up 14% and 19%, respectively. And gross profits and gross margins were $14.5 million and $30.1 million, and the gross margin was 36.6% and 36.5% respectively. Our non-GAAP adjusted EBITDA for the 2022 fiscal second quarter was $3.4 million, up $1.4 million or 69% over the comparable prior-year fiscal quarter and which represents a 9% margin to revenue. Non-GAAP adjusted EBITDA for the first half of the 2022 fiscal year was $7.3 million, up $1.7 million or 31% for our adjusted EBITDA for the same first half of the 2021 fiscal year. Before I turn it over to Kim, I just want to say how very proud I am by the outstanding effort made by our dedicated and talented people. They work extremely hard every day to ensure that our clients get the very best service. This is one of the keys to our success. And at this time, I'd like to turn the call over to our CFO, Kim Thorpe, who will further elaborate on our results for the 2022 fiscal second quarter and year-to-date results.
Thank you, Derek, and good morning, everyone. As Derek mentioned, revenues for the fiscal 2022 second quarter and six-month periods ended March 31, 2022, were $39.6 million and $82.5 million, up 14% and 19%, respectively, over the comparable fiscal 2021 period. Contract staffing services contributed $33.7 million and $70.4 million or 85% of our revenue. And direct placement services contributed $5.9 million and $12 million or 15% of our revenue for both the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2022. Contract staffing services revenues increased $2.6 million and $8.1 million or 8% and 13% for the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2022 respectively. These increases are primarily due to increased demand in our professional contract services markets as the negative effects of COVID-19 have lessened and the U.S. economy and workforce continued on recovery paths toward pre-COVID-19 conditions. Direct hire placement revenues for the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2022, were $5.9 million and $12 million, up 61% and 71% respectively. They comprise 16% of our total revenues for the professional services business segment and 15% of all of our revenues. Revenues from our Professional Staffing Services segment, which consists of the combination of contract staffing and direct hire, were $35.9 million and $74.7 million and represented 91% of total revenue for both the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2022, respectively. Our Professional Staffing Services segment revenues were up 17% and 24% from the comparable fiscal 2021 period. Our IT services end markets at Agile, Access Data, Paladin Consulting and SNI IT accounted for 47% of our Professional Services Business segment revenues and were up 21% year-over-year. The other professional services end markets, finance, accounting and administrative, office, engineering, health care and other accounted for the remaining 53% of our Professional Service Business revenues and were up 36% year-over-year. Industrial staffing service revenues were $3.7 million and $7.8 million for the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2022, respectively, compared to $4 million and $9.1 million for the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2021. We continue to experience some pandemic-related conditions associated with the delta and Omicron variants in our Ohio markets, including some school and business closings and interruptions, which were reminiscent in some respects of the early pre-COVID pandemic. Consolidated gross profits and margins were $14.5 million or 36.6% and $30.1 million or 36.5% for the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2022, both up substantially from comparable fiscal periods in 2021. Our professional contract staffing services gross margins, these are excluding direct placement services for the three month periods ended March 31, 2022, were 26.9% compared to 25.5% for the same period in 2021. Our consolidated gross margins for the last four consecutive quarters ending in the March 31, 2022, quarter have all been above 36%. The overall improvement in the company's combined gross margin is largely due to increases in and resulting higher mixes of direct hire revenues, which have 100% gross margins. Selling, general and administrative or SG&A expenses were approximately 31% and 30% of consolidated revenues for the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2022, respectively, compared with 26% and 27% for the three month and six month periods ended March 31, 2021. The settlement of a legal matter for $975,000 accounted for more than half of the expense ratio increase for the second quarter and in combination with a $509,000 severance charge taken during our fiscal first quarter ended December 31, 2021. These two items accounted for more than half of the expense increase for the year-to-date period. Another significant contributor to increases in our SG&A ratios are incrementally higher incentive and bonus compensation associated with significant revenue growth. As Derek mentioned in his remarks, we achieved net income for the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2022, of $1.1 million or $0.01 a share and $17.8 million or $0.15 per diluted share as compared with net losses in the prior-period. Our pro forma or non-GAAP adjusted net income and diluted EPS, excluding the effects of non-operating and/or nonrecurring items, which are outlined in our earnings press release, were $2.2 million or $0.02 per diluted share and $4.9 million, nearly $5 million or $0.04 per diluted share, respectively, for the three and six month periods ended March 31, 2022. Adjusted EBITDA, which is a non-GAAP measure, was $3.4 million for the 2022 fiscal second quarter, up $1.4 million or 69% over the comparable prior first year quarter. Non-GAAP adjusted EBITDA for the first half of our 2022 fiscal year was $7.3 million, up $1.7 million or 31% from our adjusted EBITDA for the first half of our 2021 fiscal year. As we've commented in prior quarters and assuming COVID-19 continued to lessen in severity and does not spike again, we believe these types of positive results are sustainable. A reconciliation of GEE Group's GAAP net income to the company's non-GAAP adjusted EBITDA and reconciliations of other non-GAAP measures and their GAAP counterparts discussed today can be found in the supplemental schedules in our earnings press release.
Thank you, Kim. The 2022 fiscal second quarter was our third consecutive quarter of good performance since we fully deleveraged the company. We now have a great first half of our 2022 fiscal year to build upon. At March 31, 2022, the company had $14 million of cash in the bank and over $13 million in availability under GEE Group's bank ABL facility. Now that all of our former CARES Act PPP loans have been forgiven by the SBA, our debt leverage is nil. This all greatly enhances both the current enterprise value and financial fundamentals of our company and significantly improve GEE Group's prospects for future profitable growth in 2022 and beyond. We have been successful so far in sustaining momentum that began during the third and fourth quarters of fiscal 2021, and that has continued into fiscal 2022. Absent the onset of recession or unforeseen events, we anticipate continued good results for the remainder of our 2022 fiscal year and beyond. Before we pause to take your questions, we again wish to thank our wonderful employees for their professionalism, hard work and dedication, without which we could not have accomplished all the good things that we have done this quarter and this year so far. Now Kim and I would be happy to answer your questions.
The first question is a question about the tax rate. The cash tax rate has so far been below the statutory rate at least in regard to real operating income. Could we get some more explanation behind this and maybe get some information on what a realistic cash tax rate range looks like for the company? Are there any deductions that the company is able to take related to contract workers that might push the statutory rate below 21%? Kim, would you comment on the tax rate, please?
I'd be happy to. Our tax rate is currently very low, primarily because we have accumulated some net operating loss carryforwards over the years, which can be seen as a benefit from our earlier struggles. These carryforwards are still quite substantial, around $20 million. We've been able to offset taxable income by using these net operating loss carryovers. To give you an idea, our EBITDA for the past 12 months has been $14 million. We still have about a year and a half or more of net operating losses available, which will continue to help us offset taxable income. After that period, we expect our tax rate to revert to a more standard level. Regarding deductions for our workforce, we can deduct 100% of the expenses associated with hiring our contract laborers, and we will always seek to take advantage of any special tax benefits that arise related to that.
Okay. Thank you, Kim.
The next question refers to projects that return more than the cost of capital, which are projects that create shareholder value. We believe the simplest way to approach this is that about 60% to 70% of acquisitions typically destroy value, as seen in some recent high-interest financed acquisitions. It raises the question of whether it's better to buy back undervalued stock. We want to understand why management seems reluctant to do this, especially with a cash position of $14 million, which is $11 million more than the amount Kim Thorpe mentioned for running operations in a recent presentation. Regarding acquisitions versus share buybacks and cash usage, share buybacks at this moment are appealing because our company is undervalued, and our stock price offers significant value. On the other hand, appropriate acquisitions that are not overpriced can also be advantageous, particularly when trading at around 4.5 times EBITDA. If those acquisitions are priced right and are neutral or accretive to earnings, they make sense. However, share buybacks are definitely under consideration with our current balance sheet. We have stated before that we possess more than $14 million in cash along with an unused credit facility. It's important to note that some of you may not be aware that the last PPP loans we had were forgiven around December 17th. The CARES Act stipulates that no share buybacks can occur within one year following the last repayment or forgiveness of those loans. Therefore, the earliest we can buy back shares, if we decide to proceed, would be December 17, 2022. This is a detail from the CARES Act that many have overlooked. However, we are able to do that, and we will revisit the matter later this year. We are generating over $2 million a quarter, which supports working capital effectively. Our unused credit facility allows us to borrow approximately $14 million, a figure that can increase based on accounts receivable. Kim, would you like to add anything to that?
Derek, I think that was really well explained. I just want to reinforce to everyone that we understand the compulsion of trying to sort of move past where the stock has been. Our job is to run this company for the long haul and to make it as profitable and strong as we can. And you can rest assured that as soon and at the right time, we'll make good acquisitions. The SNI acquisition was challenging, but I still tell people and believe that it's the best acquisition we did. The execution was a little fuzzy, but we got there. And we now have a company that's worth way more than it was at the outset. This whole team has a lot of experience in acquiring companies. I get the point or I see the metric, 60% to 70% to story value. That's not the case here. It wasn't the case at MPS Group when Derek and our Board led that business. So just stay tuned.
Thank you, Kim. And the next question kind of dovetails into that. Are there any leverage ceilings the company is setting so that something similar to how the company got burdened with high interest rate debt does not happen again? An acquisition might be attractive, but at a 10% interest rate, it's unlikely to create value for shareholders. And I agree with that comment completely. And let me lay any concerns that shareholders would have. We are not going to overleverage this company. We are not going to have high interest rate debt. And we got out of that situation, and we will never get into that situation again. So you can take that to the bank. Kim, we've had that discussion several times. We do believe our shares are a tremendous value and at the appropriate time, we'll address with the first question dealt with in terms of share buybacks. Do you want to add anything to that, Kim, about high-rate debt?
Yes. I'll just say one word, ditto.
Thank you very much. I have a question about reporting; it would be useful if the company could provide metrics like bill rates and the number of placements. Any thoughts on incorporating these metrics would be appreciated. In the Investor Presentation available online, we do cover bill rates by individual verticals and discuss the number of temps on assignment. This information is accessible, and if you’d like a follow-up discussion, please let us know. It’s a dynamic situation as business conditions change, but we’re open to discussing it further. Moving on to the next question regarding the $1 billion goal for 2025, is this goal ambitious? Should the company consider smaller acquisitions or a stock buyback, or both? I can tell you that making a large acquisition would not be appealing if it involved significant leverage or high-interest debt. More probable would be smaller, profitable tuck-in acquisitions financed through seller financing, cash, and our credit facility, which is priced at LIBOR plus a few hundred basis points. Therefore, I wouldn’t worry about a large acquisition in the near term. Our growth target is achievable through some aggressive actions on our part, but it will be limited to smaller tuck-in acquisitions. Additionally, while we are a target for acquisition by others, that is not a consideration for us right now. We are growing our company profitably and will not take actions that could disrupt that growth, except to enhance profitability and revenue. Any acquisition would need to make sense for the relevant vertical, starting with IT, such as in fast-growing segments like cybersecurity. Kim, do you have anything to add?
Yes, I would just remind everybody that we did our first four of five acquisitions literally within 18 months, start to finish.
Okay. Great. The next question is, a reverse split seems like it would open up the universe of buyers. Any reasons why you all haven't done this? Or does management maybe have a different view about this? I can tell you that, that discussion has been brought up amongst our directors and senior management, and also several shareholders have commented. The bulk of the shareholders have said, at this point, they wouldn't do a reverse split. There's some concern that if you trade under $1 on an exchange, a public exchange in the United States, that there's a requirement that you have to trade for 30 days at a certain level above it. That rule is hard fast on the NASDAQ. We're on the New York Stock Exchange American, and that rule is not hard fast. What the New York looks at is whether the company is profitable and well capitalized. And then they look at the stock price. And if they are, it's a discretionary thing with the New York. So thus far, we have not been asked by the New York Stock Exchange to do anything to alter that, and they're allowing us to grow our business and deal with that as necessary. But the concept of a reverse split may open up the door for larger shareholders and institutions that can't buy stocks under $5 for example. However, we think we can earn our way up at this point, to some degree to get to a higher level. So is a reverse split being considered or stock buybacks being considered? The answer is that those discussions have been had. There's more likelihood of a stock buyback than a reverse split. But several shareholders have commented on both ways on the reverse split, and we've had advisers tell us that it's beneficial on some situations and others tell us it's not. So we're a very open-minded and very observant as to what the best course of action is. And at this point, there's no hard fast rule either way regarding this. We received a question about management buying stock. Management holds a significant number of shares and typically buys more when the windows are open. However, we have had a lot happening lately, which has limited those opportunities. Several directors have asked if they can purchase shares. Moving forward, we hope to enhance our participation in the company's equity growth. Personally, I have invested heavily and will keep doing so. There was also a question about SG&A. The company has minimal hard assets and related costs. To improve returns, what are some investments made through SG&A that don't appear on the balance sheet? Essentially, what is the normal recurring SG&A, and how much relates to variable costs like commissions on placements? Kim, can you elaborate on what our typical SG&A percentage is and how much is variable?
Sure. About two-thirds of our SG&A primarily relates to selling, which includes both base and incentive compensation for our field force, comprised of nearly 300 core employees. Approximately half of that two-thirds is made up of incentive or variable compensation. Ultimately, if you consider the normalized SG&A ranging between 26% and 30%, around half of that is purely variable, while the other half is relatively fixed. Recently, we've been in a competitive labor market, prompting us to enhance our incentive and commission plans and significantly increase base salaries, a trend seen across the industry. This has largely contributed to the rise in our percentage, but we believe this is a temporary situation. We expect to see that percentage decrease moving forward, including in the latter part of this year.
Okay. Thank you, Kim. Another question is Hudson. I presume that's the reference to this question. Hudson is a staffing company. It's a great match to job, very much the same revenue and earnings. Is it on the horizon for a partnership or merger? I am familiar with Hudson, Hudson used to own Monster actually, an IPO-ed from TMP Worldwide way back in the '90s, and it is a well-capitalized company. It's doing okay. I would say that we're not in talks with Hudson or any other company at that level right now, but nothing is off the table if it adds tremendous value to our shareholders.
Okay. Other questions? Let's discuss bill rate trends. Kim, would you like to address that?
Yes, bill rates have increased significantly over the past year due to workforce dynamics and labor supply demands. Our business model is well-suited to this environment as we start with a base pay rate for our contractors, add a burden pay rate, and then include a margin. Because of the current workforce conditions and the high demand that surpasses supply, we have managed to keep pace with these changes. Consequently, bill rates have risen by double digits in the last year. Will this growth continue at the same rate? I don't believe so, as I expect bill rates to rise further, but the labor market has not yet stabilized, and demand still outstrips supply. While this situation is beginning to shift, there is still potential for further growth. Moreover, these fluctuating conditions present opportunities for us, and we have successfully capitalized on them thus far.
Thanks, Kim. Regarding overall spreads, which refer to the gross profit dollar per hour after burden payroll costs, I can say that spreads have increased in nearly every segment of our business. Typically, we apply a markup on burden payroll to set our pricing. As Kim mentioned, we've raised our bill rates. While pay rates have also increased, the growth in our gross profit dollar per hour has outpaced these costs. We're experiencing improved spreads, which positively affect our gross profit and gross margin. This trend is also supported by a surge in permanent placements, particularly for direct hire positions.
The next question is we've got spreads, let's see, demand trends by vertical. The demand is high in all verticals, and the highest is probably in IT. But accounting and finance is also very, very high. And the demand for permanent placements or direct hires, particularly in the accounting and finance segment is very, very high. So we continue to see great demand across the board. And the demand for contract labor is very high, too. And as you know, coming out of COVID and some of the disruptions we've had in the economy and the labor force, it bodes well for contract staffing and also permanent placements. The next question is investments in personnel and technology, and that's a great question. So we have made several investments in people. We've increased our headcount internally to help meet the rising demand. And we've also enhanced our technology to be able to work remotely and away from the office should that become more prevalent than it has been. We demonstrated that during COVID, and we're geared up with Teams and Microsoft and some of the other products that we have, and our people can work remotely on pretty much a moment's notice. So we have gone virtual on several of our offices, when leases have come up, so we've reduced our rent costs there. And we'll continue to do so. We have some permanent virtual workers, remote workers, and that works quite well with experienced hires and also with recruiting.
The next question is about the acquisition landscape. It appears to be favorable for the types of acquisitions we are targeting, specifically those that enhance our expertise in IT, particularly in cybersecurity. We are now in a position to pursue these opportunities alongside a stock buyback or similar initiatives. However, to address the concern about engaging in significant acquisitions that may lead to over-leveraging, the answer is no. We are well-prepared to proceed with these plans while maintaining a healthy balance sheet. Regarding the bad debt expense, Kim, could you comment on the one charge-off we experienced in relation to EBITDA? I think we might have lost him.
I'm sorry, I had mute on. I'm sorry, I committed that.
I was happy to comment if necessary, but the question is on.
I think it was, I don't think it's not added back as an EBITDA adjustment. I think it was used to explain a variance, but it was actually not added back.
And it was isolated, but we had reserved for.
It was isolated but we didn't include it back in adjusted EBITDA.
It was a bankrupt client in the industrial segment. But yes, I mean, it's a one-time thing, but someone might argue that bad debts occur in the normal course of business, so they shouldn't be adjusted to EBITDA.
And it's not.
Right. Any thoughts on use of free cash flow? I think we hit those pretty good. We are being able to make investments back into the business in people and technology. And we're also able to do other things, as you know, particularly if appropriate, buybacks or acquisitions. We are accumulating cash. We now have some $16 million in the bank, and you're going to say, "What are you waiting for?" Well, I gave you the guidance on the stock buyback realm of our ability to do that sometime later this year if we decide to do that and also the tuck-in acquisitions, but no big gulp at a high interest rate, which was a concern that someone mentioned. Is GEE finding M&A opportunities? Of course, we are. We get several per week, and we're able to sort them to be very selective as to which ones we want to look further on. And quite frankly, in the past, we have not been in a position to do those appropriately with our balance sheet, but we are now. And we're looking very, very hard to make sure we do the right ones priced appropriately, that are accretive to earnings and can grow nicely to going forward.
Seasonality in revenues. That's a great question. Should we expect to see sequential growth in the quarters? Do you want to comment on that, Kim?
Yes, there is seasonality in revenues, although it's not seasonality in the traditional sense. For instance, unlike companies that generate a significant portion of their business during holiday months, we observe a distinct pattern where our performance tends to be stronger in the June and September quarters compared to December and March. This year, we deviated from that usual pattern due to pent-up demand as the economy recovers from COVID. The December 2021 quarter saw one of our highest revenue results, in fact, the highest since we acquired SNI in 2017, which was atypical. This gives us confidence for the rest of the year, as we anticipate continued strong performance in the upcoming June and September quarters, despite the strong results we've seen in both December and March.
Thank you. The next question is how the rising interest rates and recession risk impact your appetite for M&A and willingness to pay historical market multiples for acquisitions? First of all, rising interest rates would impact us if we financed the acquisitions, what I would call secondary type interest rates, not at LIBOR plus a couple of hundred basis points. And at this point, we probably don't need to access any type of debt to do a tuck-in acquisition. And then recession risk with that lower multiples essentially is what the question is asking. And the answer is yes to that. Multiples typically come down in a downturn. However, the average downturn is not long, and we sailed through those before. I have managed through a couple of recessions with no problem. Our cash flow actually goes up because we collect accounts receivable faster than we expend money for payroll. So it may be opportunistic actually in a downturn. Maybe the prices will come down, and it will be more available when people get a little bit skittish about continuing.
It was a strong quarter. We have not observed any slowdown in IT hiring. I've heard reports of tech companies reducing their hiring, and while some larger tech firms have made slight reductions in permanent hires, we have not experienced that issue. Our focus is not primarily on tech firms like Amazon and Google; instead, our clients are mostly from the industrial sector and product manufacturing or telecom. These industries are currently behind on system implementations and upgrades, leading to high demand for our IT services and labor. Therefore, while some tech companies may be experiencing a slowdown, it is not affecting our customer base significantly. The next question, we did not know about the share buyback restriction. Thank you for clarifying that. And thank you for being patient with that as well, but we will address that as we can going forward. Can you comment on the headwinds or tailwinds facing your momentum?
Let me say that there are always challenges and advantages. Currently, the advantage is that the company is very well-positioned from leadership down to the field level. COVID allowed us to strengthen our personnel by retaining our top talent and bringing in significant new and valuable talent. Therefore, we are confident in our ability to recruit and retain our team. The challenges include general economic conditions that may impact business and the tight labor market. A slightly looser labor market could be beneficial for us. In times of change, staffing companies thrive because employers are unsure about hiring permanent or contract workers. Since we cater to both types, we can adapt well to the shifting global and national landscape. Additionally, staffing companies can manage cash flow effectively during downturns because they collect receivables more quickly than they pay out for payroll. This positive momentum can sustain itself for a while from a balance sheet perspective. I am not overly worried about challenges at this time because I believe our opportunities far outweigh any potential issues related to the global or national environment.
The last two quarters are the strongest. Can you give us an idea on the next two quarters? Kim, do you want to talk about the next two quarters? Thank you. Back unmute, Kim.
Thank you. We are adopting a cautious approach with our forecasts, so we are maintaining our revenue expectations from the March quarter, which indicate a range of $160 million to $165 million. While I'm not providing guidance, I want to give some context on how we view the situation. It's possible that we could exceed these estimates. Additionally, I want to reference the previous question regarding the staffing industry. When we update our investor presentations, I find it noteworthy that the projections for 2021 have significantly increased compared to earlier estimates, with even higher expectations for 2022 and 2023. These projections are influenced by positive trends that the Staffing Industry Analyst Association has identified in the market, and this is favorable for us as well.
Thank you, Kim. I'm pleased to be a shareholder and appreciate the continued momentum. I also want to know if there have been any approaches for acquisition. There is always some level of activity in that area, whether from private equity or strategic buyers. Typically, a good company of our size would attract interest. We do have discussions from time to time, but our primary focus is on running our business, growing, improving profitability, enhancing EBITDA, and earnings per share, while strategically positioning ourselves in the right sectors and markets. We are honored that our industry peers hold us in high regard, as we maintain some of the best gross margins and bill rates in comparison to leading companies, both large and small. We're committed to enhancing shareholder value, and we have considered various strategies to achieve that. I have experience running a company for nearly 17 years before selling it to Adecco Group at a premium. Building value means that acquisition discussions will come your way rather than actively seeking them out. We will prioritize what makes sense for our shareholders, of whom we are also significant stakeholders. We appreciate your feedback regarding our strategy and will take today's discussions into account as we move forward. That concludes our presentation. We really appreciate all of you for joining us today and your support through tough times, through the COVID environment and then continued support as we grow and execute, and look for good things coming from us to enhance our shareholder value. Thanks again, and that concludes our presentation for today.