Conference Transcript - PERI 2026-01-14

Speaker 2

Good morning. I'm Laura Martin. I'm the Senior Media and Internet Analyst at Needham & Company. I'd like to welcome to my stage, Tal.

Tal Jacobson, CEO

Thank you.

Speaker 2

Jacobson. Okay, so he is the Chief Executive Officer of Perrion Network, the global ad tech company that delivers integrated digital advertising solutions across search, social display, video, CTV, and programmatic channels. He assumed the CEO role in 2023 after leading Perrion's code fuel search advertising business, where he transformed it into a significant driver of the company's market share and revenue growth. With more than two decades of leadership experience across digital media and technology, including senior roles at SimilarWeb, McCann Ericsson, Wattucci, and AOL, Tal brings deep operational and strategic expertise to Perrion's evolution in a rapidly changing advertising landscape. His tenure emphasizes innovation and expansion of Perrion's technology-driven offerings to better serve advertisers and publishers worldwide. Welcome, Tal. Nice to see you. So for people not as familiar with the Perrion story, why don't you give us an overview of Perrion's position within the ecosystem and how do you see Perrion going forward?

Tal Jacobson, CEO

Yeah, absolutely. So we've, at the beginning of 2025, we've made a huge pivot towards understanding there's a big, big problem in digital advertising. There's a trillion dollars going through the pipes. there is no one company that is trying to see things from the advertiser standpoint everybody's optimizing for their own inventory so Google is great but they're optimizing for the Google and YouTube inventory meta is great Amazon is great traders is great but they're great for their own inventory we're not thinking about the inventory the inventory is just inventory we're thinking about the advertiser so that's the customer that's the person those are the people who spends trillion dollar a year and we're building an ecosystem the only ecosystem currently that's going to unify everything into one centralized platform we're not going to replace dsps you can you still need google you still need meta you still need everybody else but you need to activate that from a centralized place so you would understand what's going on and you would know if you want if you need to switch budgets between one channel to another channel because even though everybody's great they're not going to tell you to push the money to their competitors and we will because our job is to make advertisers make money nothing else okay so this is the Perry on one idea yes

Speaker 2

and you guys have a really strong out-of-home presence yes so sort of What it sounds like you're doing now, so Double Verify has this thing called sci-bids, which compares DSPs, specifically DSPs, to figure out who's giving you the best deal and who's not. So Perrion One feels like it's an auditing layer, like it's another layer of, I'm going to call it overhead or take rate to determine whether one garden is better than another than the open internet. So are people really adding layers of...

Tal Jacobson, CEO

It's an interesting way to... So I would look at it differently. So we bought a company called Green Bits six, seven months ago. It's now called Outmax, and that's the activation layer for everything. So we're not an extra layer. We're saying, just like with stocks, we have high-frequency algo trading, right? This is high-frequency algo trading for media. So activate with Outmax, which is our AI algorithm, let it do its job. So every single impression, every single click on your campaign, Outmax will go back to DSP and say, I need more of those, I need less of those, change this, change that. Every single impression. Now, it's not about verifying after the fact if that was good or not. It's within the campaign itself, optimizing, to make sure that you're getting better results. And we have already proven to our customers that with the algorithm, you can get up to 40% better yield on the exact same budget than without the algorithm. Now, we're deploying that algorithm to all the channels. So Outmax is soon going to be also available for out of home. It's already available for CTV, for Meta, for YouTube, for web. and we're deploying it to more channels, but deploy that through the algorithm to make sure that you're getting a better yield.

Speaker 2

Okay, so 40% is actually pretty typical of what people are seeing in terms of improvement when they use some kind of generative AI optimization tool. The confusion I have is you mentioned meta and I think you mentioned Google actually also. So I get why somebody should use your platform that's an AI tool on your platform that's optimized I don't understand why anyone would hire you to tell trade desk that they should be doing something different their DSP does that like it their DSP finds the best ad solutions

Tal Jacobson, CEO

so even the trade has invested in two algo companies that are sitting on top of traders and optimizing the algorithm of the trade desk for the customer they invested in two companies so custom algo for specific campaigns on top of DSPs has become a part of life yeah now if you use their AI great you get the optimization of maybe 40% of what they have if you use us you'll get an extra 40% us other algorithms because it optimizes that specific campaign what What DSPs have is kind of a vanilla algorithm for everybody, it's the same algorithm. We have an algorithm specifically for that specific campaign, for that specific brand. The algorithm will behave differently for another campaign. So custom algorithm is a whole new thing in the past year and a half maybe. Tradesk invested in two companies in that. I think we're seeing us versus the competition. We do feel very comfortable about our results. We have pretty significant results with our technology. And now we're deploying it to other platforms. So Tradex is one, but Meta, if you want to buy Instagram and Facebook with high-frequency trading algorithms, I think we're the only company that does that.

Speaker 2

How do you get access to deliverables in the Meta wall garden?

Tal Jacobson, CEO

we work with them we work with them and with the customer itself who owns the account of advertising right so we do always we constantly look at what the campaign does we also have the attribution of the customer did a person see that ad and then went on and download an app or bought a shoe or completed a video right and then we go back to the campaign and say okay we need to change this we need to improve this we need to finalize that we need to remove those we constantly optimize on the fly which up until the AI era that wasn't possible it's too much data it's too much work now it's possible so would

Speaker 2

you call this a new product would you call Perry on one a new product maybe like 12 months old or something yeah so going stepping away from that new product and going back to the core business one of the things you guys have always had a perion that differentiated you, you had a DMP. You had both sides, SSP, DSP, and you had a DMP in the middle. And then you had like sort, which was like a data kind of thing.

Tal Jacobson, CEO

Yeah, it's a target thing.

Speaker 2

Similarly, under your predecessor, the idea was to take sort and then sell it externally, which didn't work. So when we think about things that you're doing internally, let me call it the core business, not the new product. What's happening in the core business in terms of growth, in terms of out-of-home, which has been a big bet you made on out-of-home. What's happening in that part of the business?

Tal Jacobson, CEO

So in the past year, we've really pivoted everything. So one, we took all our products. Everything that wasn't performance-driven, we either sunset or rebuilt to focus on performance. We know that advertisers need to drive performance if you want to make sure that they're coming back. So the whole stickiness part of the platform is about performance. so we shifted even the core parts we just shifted them rewrite them and they're now part of perion one so it's part of the platform uh the only legacy part is the old search that we have but anything else either got rewritten or sunset but search is pretty performative

Speaker 2

wouldn't you say it is it's so you didn't have to touch it because it was already in a performance

Tal Jacobson, CEO

silo it is but in 2026 the our supply search part is only based on our yellow agreement yeah so and since we do not think there's a possibility to add more agreements it is what it is we're gonna put the effort needed to make sure that that works but it's not it's not part of the strategy no it's not okay and what

Speaker 2

parts of the business were not performance before because I always think

Tal Jacobson, CEO

of you guys as a performance engine so I'm right so the previous undertone which the company period bought 11 years ago was a high impact ads for web which basically is brand awareness and then no one interacted with them but you would see on your entire page Home Depot which is great brand awareness great but now even that specific product is now shifted towards attribution and performance so if it appears there and nobody clicked on that and nobody bought anything it will not continue to appear there and so even that goes into words

Speaker 2

the whole structure to CPC when you say no we're not we're not we didn't move

Tal Jacobson, CEO

it to CPC because we are buying that inventory on a CPM base from publishers on behalf of our customers but our algorithm exactly like our performance CTV the algorithm decides where to place those ads based on performance right so at the end of the day we're being measured our technology is being measured does it work right exactly the same thing like Meta or Google you would place more and more money into their systems if it works if it doesn't work you're gonna take it elsewhere right so that's how we're thinking about it so

Speaker 2

So you guys have historically focused on large clients, whereas Google and Meta really specialize in $5,000 budgets, $10,000 budgets, like small and medium businesses, but really 10 million advertisers on Meta, so really small. Is that something, are you doing self-service projects so you can go down to those kind of budget levels?

Tal Jacobson, CEO

So the way we're thinking about it, you're absolutely right. But I think Pellion One, we do have the majority of our customers, which we call enterprise, big brands. We're now getting more and more into the SMBs. But within this year, we're going to put two focuses on our platform. One, a lot more self-serve. And for that, we don't think people have the patience to do training on platforms anymore. So a lot of the self-serve is actually going to go on Gentic. So you would go online and say to that agent, which is already in the works, I have $100,000 of budget. This is what I'm trying to get. I'm trying to get people to sign up for a form for a new car insurance in New York. Those are the agents. What do you suggest? And the agent would say, we can do CTV, we can do out of home, we can do web, we can do tik-tok we can do meta we can do YouTube here's how I'm thinking about it and you would tell it okay so go and then when you say go our DCO which is our technology for building creative is going to play in our out max which is our activation component which knows what would work better and constantly improve it will go into action and then you'll have your insights and then you'll see okay that made sense let's approve this let's change that that's how we're thinking about and once this is ready definitely long tail what will be able to join so but that that's gonna take a bit of time but that's that's the roadmap

Speaker 2

okay and are you fine so let's talk about like the big growth products right now in ad tech or CTV retail media and I'm forgetting the other one so let's talk about those products sounds like you're pivoting towards performance which I think is great but you're not getting paid on a CPC basis so it's not being paid on your performance it's it's arguing that your products make their ad budget more performative okay and can you charge more for that because it is tied to performance do you find your take rates going up or can you get

Tal Jacobson, CEO

better so we feel that with anything we've done in the past six months without max which is the algorithm for performance we see that we can charge more but more than that we get a lot more budgets so people are just pushing more and more budgets pretty much automatically because it's just that it works you don't need to convince them right so yeah on CTV you're absolutely right that's the growing part Q3 we saw 75% growth which is great I mean the market grew in CTV in CTV market grew 14% we grew 75 so but it's small in fairness it's absolutely absolutely small but we did launch a few new products for CTV this year so performance CTV which is aligning attribution so you would know if somebody's looked at the TV ad where they're doing something after that installing an app ordering an uber whatever it was right so that's that's kind of new and the algorithm itself will shift between channels and deploy more budgets on channels that are more performative. So that's great. The other thing is Outmax, which works on YouTube, the biggest CTV channel is actually YouTube. And Outmax works perfectly for YouTube.

Speaker 2

I'm surprised the biggest CTV outlet is, I'm surprised that's the trade case, but okay. what's driving so in CTV why you just said it was up 75% so let's stay on that what do you think is driving the growth in CTV for Perrion I think it's performance it's actually so when I think of performance I think of Mountain right who will have on stage later which is doing performance C yeah well

Tal Jacobson, CEO

Mountain is self-serve performance ATV, yes.

Speaker 2

So how is yours different?

Tal Jacobson, CEO

So again, we would work with the enterprise clients and not the middle market, smaller We do not take $5,000 campaigns. Our campaigns would be tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands for campaigns. but within that you do have the customizable elements like DCOs right if I'm watching a TV ad and that would say why CEO is dynamic content optimization yes yes yes yes yes so the technology that knows how to place element on the screen right it also treats a TV as a computer so you have through that you have all the elements that you would have available on the computer you're going to have on TV. For example, you would say, why cook your dinner? Go to Golden Coral, which is just five minutes away from your house. Here's a map, right? You won't be able to do that with, I think, with platforms like Mountain, which are doing a great job, but the whole dynamic, or we know it's raining outside, order something through Uber Eats, right? Here's a QR code just because it's raining. How would you know it's raining? Because we have that DCO. The DCO knows what's happening around you. It knows where you're based because it's basically a computer. Just so you're not going to be surprised when you open your Google Maps on your computer, it knows where you are, right? Why would people be surprised where the TV knows where you are? So we're taking all the elements that you have in your computer to the TV and by that we do show companies like Golden Corals but others that this is very performative people do order things through that people do take action through that and that's I think that's driving these are

Speaker 2

stupid like their margins are like three percent like they're dumb and they keep pulling costs out of them and TVs are like two hundred dollars now I mean they're so TV sells it the TV itself so yeah telly I understand because it's got this smart brain down below yeah yeah but I don't understand how you're bringing these kinds of interactive capabilities to dumb screens their televisions well

Tal Jacobson, CEO

they're not dumb this this thing is basically a mini computer so it does have the capability of understanding where this TV is at location IP address not the TV but the IP address that ties into the internet and you can open an HTML page which basically is a browser and a browser can show you a map and can show you the weather and can show you whatever you want so it's not as dumb as you would think because if you can run a browser they can run everything but people don't use their tv like

Speaker 2

this i mean this is the whole vision of vizio the vision of lg now the vision of telly oh we're going to make this big huge screen central to the home it's going to be an agent and everybody's talking about voice you know like alexa kind of capabilities coming out of your yeah i don't know But I just don't think consumers do that. They use a TV to lean back and be entertained.

Tal Jacobson, CEO

No, you're absolutely right. I think you're absolutely right. People do not use their TV as a computer. But ed-tech capabilities are taking advantage of what a TV can offer technically. So even though you're watching Netflix, our capability of running ads, creative ads, dynamic ads within Netflix is as if it is a computer. You don't know that because you're thinking TV is just a TV. But in fact, it has the capability of a computer. Less computing power, but we're not running anything that you need to compute. We're just showing you images. But every person will see something different.

Speaker 2

So there's a long sort of pendulum swing towards personalization. So it sounds like you're personalizing. Usually people are telling me that they're using AI, gen AI. to do creative, I'm going to call it versioning. Like in Coke, I was going to use Coke, you can't because they would never let you do it. JetBlue, something a little more avant-garde. They'd say, here's three ads we've done. Go ahead and make 10,000 ads using Gen AI to make it more personalized. So there's 10,000 ads, which is not, it's more personalized than having three ads or one ad, but it's not person to person. You're not seeing a different ad than I am, right? It's cohorted in a way.

Tal Jacobson, CEO

Yeah, yeah. So we're not using AI to create ads because we do not think, especially on the enterprise level, like companies like Nike or United. Not even for versioning? We actually use that for versioning. So we would take seven different versions and we'd let the AI figure out what works best for people at that screen size, in that neighborhood, when it's raining. Absolutely.

Speaker 2

But it's not creating the seven. Some human created the seven. But that is where the world's going, is letting Agenda create that.

Tal Jacobson, CEO

I think enterprise, so companies like Mountain, absolutely. If I'm a hairdresser and I don't have a lot of budget, I'm not going to hire publicists for this. Right? And I'm going to hire a creative person. I just need people to see my store and a beautiful girl with nice hair and say 50% off or whatever. Yeah. Great. For this. is doing this too yeah because self-service content creation absolutely but we're we're a bit different where i think what we're trying to achieve is getting ai to make decisions to create better yield on your media investment we're not trying to compete on the creative part we're trying to make sure that if you're spending a hundred thousand dollars you should get the result that you need and if you're not then we'll switch channels then we'll switch versions then we'll switch attribution until AI can figure this out so that's I think that's the

Speaker 2

power and you're getting larger budgets what you're finding is as you optimize it doesn't hurt you because I mean there's a lot of benefit in your because you get paid as a percent of the media spend it's bad to optimize at some level because if you only can spend 50% as much to reach the million target impressions suddenly you got paid less but you're saying that you're getting

Tal Jacobson, CEO

higher budgets because of the optimization yeah so the way our algorithm works or optimized is on results because we know that if you get the results we're going to get more budgets it's not about how do i extract more margin through that because we need to get into that place where we can scale our business right so you know 2025 we're pivoted a business 2026 is about scale how do we scale this? How do we get more customers? How do we get more budget through the customers we have now? And that goes through what we believe, how do we add more value? Adding value is, if you're a customer, you're looking for new customers to buy a car, a vacation, a cruise line, whatever. That's our goal. Our goal is to make you happy because we know you're going to come back. So that's what we're focusing on.

Speaker 2

So this pivot that you're talking about, sounds like it doesn't involve out-of-home at all.

Tal Jacobson, CEO

It does. It absolutely does. So as part of the mix, the media mix, we will always give you the option to activate out-of-home. And we do see a lot of companies, a lot of advertisers are now seeing out-of-home as a performative channel, which is something...

Speaker 2

How is that possible? Like walking by a billboard and somehow...

Tal Jacobson, CEO

So we do see, and if you guys are interested, going to our website, we have a lot of case studies how that works for specific brands. But an example that I always love giving is we've done, Uber used our systems to buy all the video screens in Hong Kong. And because they use our DCO, if you were on a bus station.

Speaker 2

Dynamic content optimization.

Tal Jacobson, CEO

And it was raining, the DCO decided to put somebody with an umbrella and say, stop standing in the rain, order an Uber. Or if it's heavy traffic, the DCO would replace that and see somebody looking at the watch and say, you're going to be late, order an Uber. And Uber saw a huge lift in orders, right? But we have so many different examples on our website. ST Lauder saw a huge lift in buying their anti-age new face cream in Hong Kong as well. Burger King, we have an amazing case study with Burger King, with Lululemon in Germany. We know how to measure success at out-of-home. But even more than that, as you said, retail media is really, really growing. And now out-of-home is starting to be within stores, within malls, on your way to a store, right? so how do we make sure that if you're on your way to target we want to make sure that you're gonna actually end up in target and not go into the competition and we want to make sure that you know it's 50% off on what we want to sell you so how do we use out of home to make sure that you're going to the store and you are aware that there's a big sale now right so out of home now becomes part the offline retail journey and the US is I think over 85% of people still buy physical stores and not online 85% which is a big number so out of home plays

Speaker 2

perfectly into that it's just so funny because you said you jettisoned everything that wasn't performative and I don't think about home is performative but you guys have figured out a way to link performance to it and performance Do you get paid differently on this? Because sometimes when companies link to performance, they get a percent of the cost savings. Like they change their business model. You're still doing a take rate as a percent of ad spending, the ad budget spending.

Tal Jacobson, CEO

So we're sticking with the exact business model that Meta has, Google has. Push as much budget as you want through our pipes. If it works, push more. But we're only going to take a cut out of the media. That's it. There's nothing else. Google doesn't take a success fee. So we have the exact business model that Meta has and Google has.

Speaker 2

And that you guys have always had. This isn't different than your historical fee structure. Any pressure on take rates to the downside?

Tal Jacobson, CEO

I think as we're going to scale up, we might need to incentivize customers to spend more money on, you know, bigger volume commitments. We might see lower take rates, but that should come with volume commitment. Like volume discounts, sort of.

Speaker 2

Like you'll have stair-step functions, our take rate is this, and if you hit this benchmark, it steps down to here like that. That's your thinking?

Tal Jacobson, CEO

Yeah, and when you think about it, most ad platforms have that, right? Tradesk has that, Magnite has that. Buy through us this, we'll give you a discount.

Speaker 2

right yeah in this pivot of products did you end up losing a lot of customers

Tal Jacobson, CEO

it's a pretty big pivot so when we started this we did find a few products that didn't make sense that we didn't want to continue with we shut them off and by that we did said good said our goodbyes to a few customers but that wasn't a profitable part of the business anyway so you got rid of revenue but it

Speaker 2

didn't really have a profit margin with it so it didn't hurt the business itself

Speaker 4

yep okay questions from the audience for tell yes sir that's a good question so

Tal Jacobson, CEO

currently because our platform is a bit more complicated than just going business to business we do go through the major agencies or the bigger brands that have the capacity first of all every every brand has comes with hundreds of thousands of dollars and not five thousand dollars but again I think part of our way of thinking about our roadmap is how do we get this to be as simple as possible so even if you're a real estate agent right I think I think the world is gonna get there and I think if we're the infrastructure of agenti ki kind of think about as a gateway to advertising and you don't need you don't need to be trained on meta you don't need to be trained on Google you don't need to be trained on whatever you just need to tell us what you want give us the budget it, tell us what you want, let's deploy it. So we're absolutely going to get there. It's a matter of priority, what would provide us the bigger scale now, but that's definitely

Speaker 4

part of the roadmap. It's not very significant. So currently we have our salespeople that

Tal Jacobson, CEO

are going to the major agencies or the major brands. So it's mainly our salespeople and marketing we do not acquire customers online but as we would go into more and more self-serve that that that will be I will get there let's talk about your

Speaker 2

capital allocation approach how do you balance invest yeah yeah go yeah you ask

Speaker 3

your form of the question yeah absolutely so we did just announce

Tal Jacobson, CEO

Last quarter, we announced that we're going to increase our buyback to $200 million. For a $400 million market cap, that's quite big.

Speaker 3

$200?

Tal Jacobson, CEO

$200 total, yes. With that, I do not have the final number for Q4, and I'm not going to go into that, but I think over half of that was already bought in 2025. five yes so and we're we're feeling the absolutely right the stock is extremely cheap extremely cheap so we absolutely and within that we also think we're generating a lot of cash we're going to continue to generate a lot of cash we're very profitable company that our DNA is to be stay profitable we do not know how to operate a business that is not profitable. Thank God. Profitable on an annual basis. Cash flow, positive, generating money. Ethics should be about generating cash. Within that, yes, $200 million, buyback, $100 million, roughly, already got through the pipe. On the rest of our money, investing in our organic part, continue to invest in our system, we are becoming more and more an infrastructure for AI. Investing in inorganic, so what else do we need? What more algorithms would we need to provide more value to our customers so we can scale faster. That's how we're thinking about budget allocation. Thank you. Yes, yes. So, you know, we're defining 2025 was a pivotal year. 2026, we're still building our product. 2027 is really about scale. It's all about scale. The product should be completely ready to really, really scale this. AI should

Speaker 3

accelerates our scale and yeah 27 is you know I can't I can't give you guidance

Tal Jacobson, CEO

on this but yeah that's the goal that's that is the goal that's where our mind is at yes yes yes we're really thinking about how do we consolidate everything into one platform we want marketers to use only this do not use anything else just use this same the same budgets the same everything we'll show you better results we'll show you you need less people on your team and we need you to be able to shine to your CFO that's the goal so that's how we're thinking about it yes without going into guidance yes that's exactly how we're thinking about

Speaker 2

it so tell this pivot you're talking about for 2025 sounds like a remake of the entire company so what was going wrong what was the catalyst that you basically threw out what came before and pivoted so hard into this Perry on one

Tal Jacobson, CEO

product yeah the old period so I'm just saying they exist in 1999 been on the market stock market since 2006 it's a very long time for a company that kept pivoting and kept buying more and more things I think within that time we also had four or five different CEOs. I'm not saying anything bad about anyone. They all had their own idea. That's fine. But when I started this journey, the revenue happened. Yeah. When the board asked me to take that sit, I said, one, we have to stop being a holding company. It's just not efficient. So, twenty-one-five really structured our entire cost structure we all are very high paying people that were just duplicates had to leave so in 2025 we replaced nine out of ten executives nine out of ten executives yes nine out of ten executives got replaced in the past year and a half which for a public company it's a big deal to replace everybody so change the cost from a cost structure we pivoted away from managing inventory i don't think it's the future unless it's your inventory if you're a closed garden and you own youtube great it's yours if you're just reselling cnn.com then what's the value there right i mean everybody if you want to buy this thing for CNN not for everybody else take rate on that if

Speaker 2

you're representing CNN and you're an SSP there's a take rate on that but you

Tal Jacobson, CEO

sorry so if you want to buy CNN or you want to buy Disney you want to buy Hulu you can buy through me you can buy through 300,000 other companies there is no unique value that's what you're saying there's the reason why Google and Meta are really really growing they have the unique asset that nobody else can sell right since we do not have an asset on the inventory part we didn't see a why we should continue to invest in that the only asset we see is the one that nobody actually sees I don't know why it's it's it's I cannot get my head about it the customer there are customers that are spending a trillion dollar a year nobody's

Speaker 2

focusing on them sorry trade desk jeff green says that the main asset is the buyer the guy that's putting money to work that's just what you're saying i thought that you there you prefer dsps

Tal Jacobson, CEO

to ssps i'm not again i'm not going against jeff green or anybody else no he's agreeing with you that the primary asset is the customer i agree but jeff green or trade desk which are doing an amazing job on open web they're focusing on open web if all open web grows doesn't grow that's human behavior that has nothing to do with Jeff Green or anybody else humans are not going to continue to read editorial websites for the next 10 years that's going to change because AI is changing it but advertisers and brands are always going to continue to look for customers and they're always gonna spend more money on advertising. I do not care if it's now it's TikTok and tomorrow it's VR and the next day it's whatever, spaceships, I don't care. I want them to be able to log into one place now and in 20 years from now and manage everything through their AI agent which is customizable to Nike because it knows Nike and it constantly works with Nike. that's what I want I do not want to focus on open web or this or that inventory I want to focus on the customer okay so a year ago I asked you

Speaker 2

on the stage what was the most controversial thing you were saying you say the open web is dead and at the time you were a hundred percent open web revenue stream so this is this pivot is a result of that belief that you've moved sort of to the DSP side you sort of agree with single-sided DSPs that the Customer who has money to spend is the primary asset yes that the open web might be under threat from search links being replaced by answers Maybe traffic falls in the open web and or there's commoditization and take rate Squeezing out of take rate in the ad tech ecosystem Yes, so you're pivoting away from the open web, which was so this is the answer to my catalyst question. Yes They come to a you come to a decision about the future of the open web So you've moved the positioning of the company away from the open web

Tal Jacobson, CEO

Yes. And, you know, you asked me that a year ago in CES. I did. I did. And a year ago, that was for me to say open web is about to die when the entire company was open web. It was controversial. Definitely counted. But I've done what I believe. I believe that I shouldn't think about today. I should create value for the long run. I should create the infrastructure that's going to stay here. And that's how we're building our company.

Speaker 2

So as you pivot away from open web, how do you define this? What business are you now in if you're not open web?

Tal Jacobson, CEO

You can buy open web through us. You can buy CTV. You can buy social. You can buy whatever you want. We're not focusing on the open web specifically. We're focusing on $100,000. What do you want to get? I want to get customers that are doing this. let's see if open web answers that need or not if it does great then Outmax will buy it on open web if it doesn't we'll buy it on meta if it doesn't we'll buy it on YouTube if it doesn't we'll buy it on out of home if it doesn't

Speaker 2

how do you buy YouTube I thought the point of a walled garden is you couldn't get to their inventory without going through them no we definitely go through

Tal Jacobson, CEO

them but the algorithm sits on top of them and optimize what they suggest so

Speaker 2

the algorithm optimizes across the open web and the walled gardens but if you decide that the wall garden is a better place to spend money you still have to use the Facebook interface or the Google Ads DV 360 interface so the customer

Tal Jacobson, CEO

doesn't you need to use anything because Outmax will do that for them it does

Speaker 2

attack does that yes okay so okay so instead of just figuring out and telling people where to spend money it goes and spends the money for them and optimizes yeah okay and when you say performative since you can't get any feedback loops from any walled garden assuming that just pick a number if somebody gives you a hundred thousand and fifty thousand get spent in a walled garden Amazon Google or Facebook how do you then tell the customer it was performative no we

Tal Jacobson, CEO

can we can absolutely do that because the person who implement that contribution at the world garden is the customer that's Nike that's how Nike knows if Meta works, right? No, I don't think you lost it. If I'm an advertiser, if I'm Nike or Uber or whatever, and I place an advertisement on Meta, my own team placed that on Meta, then I would let Meta know what is conversion. So let's say conversion is somebody opens Uber and order it right. And I would place a code that goes through Uber to Meta and say, that worked, that didn't work, that did work. So that attribution, Uber needs to set up. Uber already has that. The only thing we do, so Uber already tells Meta what works, what doesn't work. What Outmack does is it sits on behalf of Uber and says, okay, now that you told Meta if it works or didn't work let me work with meta on real-time basis milliseconds and say it worked it didn't work i want more of that so one less of this this that that because meta is optimizing on margin i'm not my optimizing on margin for meta i'm optimizing on results for the customer we have different versus other like channels yeah yeah

Speaker 2

and percent of this total revenue you think is going to be ctv versus basically desktop and mobile i think ctv is getting more and more even with this product the perry on one product yeah

Tal Jacobson, CEO

yeah absolutely i think ctv is definitely going to be unperformative if the whole idea is we're

Speaker 2

moving to performance so we're out of home feels unperformative and ctv you those feel like objectives that are not performative they feel like at odds with the strategy of moving towards

Tal Jacobson, CEO

Yeah, so we're seeing more and more app companies that are driving performance to download their app through TV. So that is becoming performative.

Speaker 2

I'll call it there because we're against time. Thank you very much.