Earnings Call Transcript - RITM Q4 2024

Operator, Operator

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. I would like to thank you for joining us today for Rithm Capital's fourth quarter and full year 2024 earnings call. Joining me today are Michael Nierenberg, Chairman, CEO of Rithm Capital, Nick Santoro, Chief Financial Officer of Rithm Capital, and Baron Silverstein, President of NewRez. Throughout the call, we are going to reference the earnings supplement that posted this morning to the Rithm Capital website, www.rithmcap.com. If you have not already done so, I encourage you to download the presentation now. I would like to point out that certain statements made today will be forward-looking statements. These statements by their nature are uncertain and may differ materially from actual results. I encourage you to review the disclaimers in our press release and earnings supplement regarding forward-looking statements and to review the risk factors contained in our annual and quarterly reports filed with the SEC. In addition, we will be discussing some non-GAAP financial measures during today's call. Reconciliations of these measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures can be found in our earnings supplement. With that, I will turn the call over to Michael.

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

Thanks, Emma. Good morning, everyone. I want to welcome you to our fourth quarter and full year call for Rithm. The company had a great fourth quarter and a great year. What I thought I would do today, which is a little bit different than our typical earnings call, is take a step back and talk about the Rithm story for a minute. When you look at Rithm, you may ask who are we? We began the company in 2013 while at Fortress to acquire MSRs from banks as Basel III capital rules made them too costly. The company, which started with $1 billion of capital, today has grown to $7.8 billion of permanent capital. Along the way, we grew our asset management business and began building and acquiring operating companies. In 2022, the board acquired the management contract of New Residential from Fortress. And then we began the next leg of our journey, which was to continue building a world-class asset management means for our thought, which was to go out and raise third-party capital. So if you think about it, while at Fortress all the capital and all the growth of the company was done in the public markets, to not confuse that story, we built it in the public markets. As we looked at the next leg of our lives, we said, let's go raise private capital. So in August of 2022, we changed our name to Rithm Capital. While we still operate as a REIT, we continue to evaluate the benefits of changing our capital structure. There are still some things to do in order for us to get there. Today, when I look at the firm and we look at the firm, we have what I believe is a complete product offering for shareholders and LPs in all asset classes, ranging from real estate to credit, including the new hot term in the private capital sector of ABF, which is asset-based finance, something that we have been doing our whole careers. Another exciting development is we expect to announce soon, probably in the next 30 days, a global energy infrastructure platform with scale capital partners, which will be supplying power to data centers across the world. When I think about our business, I like to think about why us. One, results. Must have performance to grow our business. Two, we are very different from other asset managers. We have the ability to manufacture assets through our operating businesses. We underwrite, originate, and service the assets from beginning to end. Servicing matters. We have been in a very benign credit cycle for many years, and at some point, that will turn, and having the third-largest mortgage company or servicer here in the United States is going to make a big difference for our business. Our asset management business. Many of you know we acquired Sculptor in November of 2023. We have been together for one year, and the business is doing great. The results are great. We look forward to future growth there as well. So our value proposition is the following. Results first again, when you look at the family of all of our companies, on the investment side between Rithm, Sculptor, and some of our other investment areas, we have over 400 individuals. Our operating business lines have approximately 7,000 people. Number two, when I look at our equity, when looking at the sum of the parts, we are severely undervalued. As we continue to trade as a REIT, like others that trade a REIT, either trade at book, slightly above book, or below book. I think that the sector is extremely undervalued relative to other asset managers trading at 30 times DE. Our manufacturing engine for assets differentiates us from others. One of our LPs would like to differentiate our product offerings. We can create whatever product offering. So I will now refer to our supplement, which has been posted online. I will start with page three. I will go through most of the slides. Baron will hit the mortgage company. Then we will go to Q&A. So when you look at the company today, between Rithm and Sculptor, assets really being managed, Rithm has a $45 billion balance sheet. Sculptor has about $35 billion of AUM. The combined entity is about $80 billion of AUM. $7.8 billion of permanent capital, and the company makes a little more than a billion dollars a year. When you look at growth, we are seeing 76% earnings growth since the first quarter of 2021. The right side of the page, you can have a look. NewRez, our mortgage company, obviously, is tied to the asset management business in the private markets. Genesis Capital, one of the largest non-bank construction/RTL lenders in the business. Last year in June, we took over the management contract of something called Great Ajax. It was kind of a broken REIT. We renamed it Rithm Property Trust, with the intent of growing that into, quite frankly, like a Rithm, like what others have done in the public markets around externally managed vehicles. And then we have a small SFR business underway. Financial highlights on page four show year-over-year growth in earnings of 27%, earnings available for distribution of $2.10. As I look at Q4, GAAP net income was $263 million or $0.50 per diluted share, return on equity of 16%. Earnings available for distribution totaled $316 million or $0.60 per diluted share. Return on equity, when you look at our dividend, is still at 9.2%. We still paid $0.25 per common share. Book value ended the year at $12.56, which I think is pretty much unchanged versus the prior year. Today, our book value is around the same. For fiscal year 2024, our full-year GAAP net income was $835 million or $1.67 per diluted share, with a 14% return on equity, which includes marks and other things. Earnings available for distribution reached $1.05 billion, or $2.10 per diluted share, with a 17% return on equity. And again, the dividend yield of 9.2%, as we pay a dollar a year. Page five, regarding our year-end review, Genesis Capital was acquired from Goldman's merchant bank in December of 2021. At that time, they were doing about $2 billion in origination. This year, we did $3.6 billion. When we acquired the company, the EBITDA number was about $40 million. Today, it is around $100 million of EBITDA. So it has been a great success story. Obviously, with banks and regional banks pulling back in certain areas, this company is poised for success, and it is also poised for significant growth. The asset management side, as I pointed out, we are one year in with Sculptor, our asset management arm. Returns have been solid. If you look at the Multi-strategy Fund, last year, it delivered 18% gross or 13.5% net. If you look at some of the other businesses in the real estate side, I will get into that when we look at some of the Sculptor slides. This great performance echoes my opening remarks that the only thing we care about is performance first. Performance first is going to lead to more AUM growth. It is not the other way around for us. When I look at the investment portfolio, we completed seven securitizations in 2024, totaling nearly $3 billion. We invested $1.8 billion in residential mortgage assets. One of the interesting deals we did, and this is very popular with several LPs, was a $200 million equity investment in a large SRT transaction with a significant bank, where we effectively took a slice of a mortgage warehouse. Why us? Because we have the operational capacity in case there was an issue with one of their underwriting mortgage bankers. Our NewRez company is something I am very proud of. Baron has done a great job as has his leadership team. We are now the top three US mortgage servicer and the number five US mortgage originator overall. Keep in mind, when we were at Fortress, we built Mr. Cooper, which was formerly known as Nationstar. We started this company from scratch in 2018. So very, very proud of the team and the results we have there. That company is just poised to grow, and I think a lot of it, as Baron will discuss, is due to the solid foundation for growth we have. We will continue to aim to grow our third-party asset management business. We want to shrink our balance sheet and do more off-balance sheet work. If you look to the right side of the page, Rithm Property Trust I mentioned earlier was an opportunistic situation. Effectively, we took over the management contract, and the team has done a great job on that. We took it over in June. Initially, it was losing money but now has moved to being flat and should continue to grow. Specifically for Rithm shareholders, that is an externally managed vehicle. So management fees, as we grow, will feed the bottom line. Asset-based finance is a hot topic; every asset manager seems to be talking about it, given the so-called $30 trillion opportunity. We have been familiar with this our entire careers. Regarding the energy transition, as I pointed out, we intend to partner and launch a global energy infrastructure fund. What is going on there is we plan to partner with several of our former Fortress colleagues, bringing in third-party capital. There is a significant shortage of power globally. We will not delve deeply into that in the Q&A, but I will say we have a world-class team. We will not enter a sector unless we have expertise. And we are incredibly excited because the need for power around the globe is massive, and capital is desperately required to fund power generation, whether for building power plants or financing hyperscale technology firms. That brings us to page six. The breakdown shows, in terms of value, I am not going to spend too much time discussing. The bottom line here is I think our equity is extraordinarily cheap. When I look at asset managers and their valuations, we consistently make a billion dollars yet trade at just over six times our earnings. We have asset management and operational businesses. The company is extremely undervalued. I think, at some point, in the near future, the market will pay closer attention to the recent and real earnings potential around our firm and others in our sector. Comparing our valuation of six times earnings to that of peers trading at 30 times, I know where I would make my investment. For capital deployment on page six, our strategic approach since 2021 showcases our earnings growth, climbing 76% during that time. From a CAGR perspective, our earnings available for distribution have seen a 16% growth. I am very proud of that. There are a couple of points I would like to share about Genesis, as I mentioned earlier. The company was acquired in 2021, and it continues to be successful. The team here at Rithm collaborates closely with them. I expect this business to remain sensitive to credit trends, as I pointed out earlier. Presently, we have $3.6 billion generating around $100 million of EBITDA. I expect that to continue growing. This asset class remains highly sought after. Additionally, we are seeing significant demand from LPs for this type of product. Many different sponsors favor this and I believe in the upside, considering the unfortunate circumstances in various locations, and we are indeed poised to provide loans in these instances. I will move on to the Sculptor slide, page thirteen. After acquiring Sculptor in November, we are now one full year in. Returns have been remarkable. Fundraising has gone exceptionally well. Our teams span world-class real estate and multi-strategy businesses, and we plan to grow our credit business over time. We restarted the CLO platform last year and have seen growth among non-traded grade funds. Furthermore, between Rithm and Sculptor, Rithm acts as a true partner. When assessing initiatives Sculptor takes, whether launching funds or other projects, it is very likely that our support will facilitate fund participation and help grow those efforts. On page fourteen, we review performance. The Sculpture tactical credit fund, for instance, recorded a 25% gross return, nearly 20% net. If you evaluate the Multistrategy fund, as mentioned earlier, it achieved 18% gross and 13.5% net returns. When considering our real estate business, our teams are world-class. We anticipate that funds will be oversubscribed. Finally, in discussing Rithm Property Trust, I will then hand it over to Baron. This entity, a so-called broken REIT, was also taken over in June. Currently, it has about $250 million of equity. There are management fees and a promote structure. As we nurture this vehicle, capitalizing on dislocations in the commercial real estate market, we expect it to transform into a multibillion-dollar enterprise. With that, I will turn it over to Baron, who will talk about NewRez.

Baron Silverstein, President of NewRez

Good morning, everybody. Turning to slide twenty, NewRez delivered another strong quarter, with fourth quarter pretax income, excluding mark-to-market, of approximately $280 million, reflecting a 12% quarter-over-quarter increase and delivering a 20% ROE. We also concluded 2024 with approximately $1 billion in pretax income, a 26% year-over-year increase, and a 19% ROE. These results reflect a change in segment reporting, including MSRs that were previously reported as serviced by others and the MSR hedge, now reported in the investment portfolio segment. This modification more accurately reflects the economics of Rithm's origination and servicing segment, which encompasses NewRez and resembles industry norms across our sector. Overall, we continue to gain momentum; these results show the strength of our platform. We have $844 billion in total servicing, now the number three servicer, and $59 billion in funded volume for 2024, positioning us as the number five originator. Moving to slide twenty-one, we remain in growth mode. The last few years have demonstrated the effectiveness of our well-balanced platform by leveraging origination and servicing opportunities regardless of market conditions. Our strategy for 2025 is no different; we do not chase market share nor depend on a hope that rates will decrease. Instead, we focus on enhancing our brand presence and delivering a best-in-class customer experience to maximize customer retention and recapture. Growing our B2B platforms also entails building new partnerships and increasing wallet share with our existing customer base while capitalizing on MSR and platform acquisitions. These initiatives, coupled with our operational excellence and efficiency improvements through AI and technology, continue to support our financial performance. Transitioning to slide twenty-two, our origination business is also performing well. We funded approximately $17 billion in the fourth quarter, up 9% quarter-over-quarter and $96 million in origination PTI, marking a 19% increase from the previous quarter. This quarter represents our best financial performance since 2021. Although the market remains competitive, we have improved our average margins to 131 basis points, an 8 basis point increase overall quarter-over-quarter, while maintaining market share. All our channels were profitable in 2024, and our multichannel strategy allows us to optimize opportunities in all market conditions, highlighted by $270 million in origination PPI for the full year, reflecting a 1200% year-over-year increase. One of our top priorities and greatest opportunities is our customer retention; our portfolio now consists of 3.7 million customers. This scale presents significant opportunities for portfolio recapture and growth through future cross-sell strategies. Our origination growth strategy centers on delivering recapitalization opportunities without depending on a rate rally, encompassing cash-out refinances, home equity loans, and purchase transactions for our existing customer base. Ensuring we enhance our brand and invest in building digital tools to improve our customer experience is essential for our success. As we move to slide twenty-four, our servicing business continues to operate effectively. Our total managed servicing portfolio has reached $844 billion, composed of $525 billion of owned MSRs serviced directly by NewRez, $65 billion of owned MSRs managed by others, and $254 billion of third-party servicing. Previously, the financials related to the servicing by others portfolio were reported in investment segments, but it is important to acknowledge that NewRez has always actively managed these SDO MSRs and their performance in relation to our standards. Our third-party servicing franchise has had a strong quarter, adding $21 billion in net notional UPB, up 9% quarter-over-quarter, while continuing to improve wallet share with existing customer relationships and bringing in new ones. Performance remains driven by our operational efficiency, proprietary technology, scale, and cost leadership, evidenced by our ability to transfer 1.2 million loans in 2024. On slide twenty-five, we see our owned MSR performance reflecting market conditions, with higher interest rates and lower prepayment speeds; I won't dwell on that. Moving to slide twenty-six, our market-leading special servicing franchise underscores our core capabilities. This aspect of our business is not only capital-light and fee-based but also provides significant operating leverage on our platform. While delinquencies remain low compared to historical context, as Michael mentioned, they are gradually increasing. We help homeowners find solutions to remain in their homes, as evidenced by our growing third-party client base and performance, including our support for customers facing challenges, like recent hurricanes and Los Angeles fires. I firmly believe our business is as well positioned as it has ever been, and I am eager to communicate NewRez's growth story in 2025. Back to you, Mike.

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

Thanks. Operator, if we could just turn in and open up the lines for Q&A, that would be great.

Operator, Operator

If at any time your question has been addressed, the first question comes from Bose George. Please go ahead.

Bose George, Analyst

Could you give us any updated thoughts on the potential listing of NewRez in 2025? And then could you also just tie that into your comments, Michael, in your prepared remarks about potential changes in the capital structure at Rithm?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

Sure. We are not there yet on listing the company. If you had talked to Nick and the team, we have taken steps to have separate segment reporting so that everything is now listed at the mortgage company. This provides a clear view into that company’s performance. I think the big part for us is to determine how we think about shareholders, not just at the mortgage company level, and to ensure we get the appropriate multiple for how we see ourselves in the business. That was one of the reasons I opened differently than I typically do. Certain pieces need to come into play. One is if we were to pursue this, we want to grow our REIT; you would have a dedicated REIT, a C corp up top, in the same way that best-in-class asset managers operate, with our operating companies positioned below. That is the path we are on. The M&A pipeline we are examining is extremely robust, be it on the asset management side or simply some of the other initiatives I mentioned in my opening remarks. However, I cannot say today that we will list the company. We are currently working on our capital structure and aim to instigate some changes. We have engaged in meaningful discussions with our board and I am hopeful that we can pave a route forward, but we need to scale the REIT right now.

Bose George, Analyst

Okay. That is helpful. Thanks. In terms of timeline, that suggests that it is probably not a 2025 event, will you sort of build out the other pieces? Is that fair?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

No. I would like to target a 2024 timeline, but I believe that is unlikely. If we can achieve this in 2025, we will absolutely do it. I genuinely believe our common stock is fundamentally undervalued.

Bose George, Analyst

Okay. Great. One more quick question. Regarding the SPAC; I know you cannot discuss it, but will that be part of Sculpture if that proceeds? If it does happen, will it be a Rithm company?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

I cannot go into a lot of details, but the emphasis is on generating more fee-earning businesses that can contribute to the parent company. As we explore opportunities for diversification, we may look into certain types of vehicles.

Douglas Harter, Analyst

Thanks, Michael. You talked about scaling up the REIT in your last answer. What assets do you find attractive and how would you look to expand the REIT?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

Doug, I think it is more of the same in what we do. We have allocated a lot of capital to the mortgage company, which has extensive capital. The MSR business has proven to be extremely beneficial to the company and its shareholders. We continue to believe in that asset. As Baron pointed out, we have nearly $850 billion and continue to grow the third-party servicing levels. When evaluating a ten-year note with a current rate of approximately 4.4 or 4.5%, mortgages are trading at 1.20 or 1.30 in the agency market. Additionally, we continue to pursue non-QM assets or prospects on the Genesis side. That is where I expect to see growth on the REIT side.

Douglas Harter, Analyst

Along those lines, how do you see the investor property loans today, particularly related to private-label securitizations, and the potential impact of discussions around the GSEs?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

When and if those discussions materialize, I believe we are well-positioned to leverage our capital base, operational platforms, and our mortgage company. This positions us as a world-class mortgage institution. Whether those loans are for investors or if agencies revert to older operational frameworks regarding privatization, I believe we can capture value. In the past, G fees were around 25 basis points, they are presently about 50 basis points. Some wiggle room exists. When you factor in the reinsurance market, you can see how that might function, and I am optimistic about our standing.

Douglas Harter, Analyst

Michael, just one more question regarding the scalability of the REIT. Can you achieve that with your current capital base, or would you need to raise additional capital?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

It depends. It could be a combination of both. Keep in mind that most REITs operate independently, and M&A activity in the REIT space is rare. When I consider our business with approximately $8 billion in permanent capital, I see that as a strong position. Away from our asset management operations, if we manage to scale our services, that will eventually lead to management fees that will augment growth.

Kenneth Lee, Analyst

Thanks for taking my question. Good morning. Regarding Sculptor, you mentioned initiatives to strengthen the credit business. Can you share more specifics about those initiatives and expectations for fundraising this year?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

The initiatives largely focus on performance. Strong performance will generate more AUM. Our capital formation team is actively engaging with LPs. Weighing in on credit initiatives or other areas, we have two approaches. Our M&A focus does not involve paying 20 or 30 times the earnings multiples. There are various platforms we are exploring. I believe real performance will attract additional capital. Regarding fundraising, while I cannot provide specific numbers, I can confirm that both our real estate and credit divisions are performing well so we expect a strong year ahead. Although we do not compare ourselves to Blackstone or Apollo, there is ample opportunity out there.

Kenneth Lee, Analyst

Got it. Very helpful. One follow-up, if I may. Any updated outlook on expense management for Sculptor? Is it still considered to be in an investment phase?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

I think it is more business as usual. We evaluate expenses periodically at Sculptor, at the mortgage company, and at Rithm. Identifying synergies across our operating platforms remains a priority, and we continue to work on those initiatives so we expect possible savings down the road. It aligns with our commitment to risk management and delivering increased earnings for our shareholders.

Giuliano Bologna, Analyst

Good morning, Jeff. Congrats on the general performance. When considering the REIT growth, do you see value in transferring assets into the Rithm Property Trust framework and using that as a public vehicle, or would you prefer to develop separate vehicles over time with distinct strategies?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

I think it is both. We prefer not to transfer assets from one REIT to another, rather, we are considering transactions in the commercial real estate sector, where both Rithm and Rithm Property Trust will likely participate as distinct entities to balance risk effectively. Our preference leans towards creating more vehicles and assessing verticals that we may not yet occupy. For instance, I previously mentioned energy infrastructure; there are world-class professionals establishing a business with extensive third-party capital commitments that will be integral for that initiative moving forward.

Giuliano Bologna, Analyst

I have another question. You’ve made significant strides acquiring in the mortgage company or MSR sector. When it comes to M&A, are there any avenues related to originating servicers or bulk pool acquisitions that you’re pursuing? Or is your focus elsewhere?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

We evaluate everything that is available. If there is something that is beneficial for our capital and shareholders, we will act. Currently, the market for mortgage companies is limited, from our perspective. We will keep our eyes peeled for anything that is accretive; we indeed have a strong track record with MSR assets that have benefitted us. We are starting to see genuine demand for MSR funds too. So we may witness some of that transitioning off balance sheet, which will also release up some capital. We have an M&A team that assesses opportunities across the board, but we need the expertise to execute successfully. We will continue to evaluate all potential options. If there are suitable candidates that can contribute, we will pursue that vigorously. I believe we could explore C-corp conversion relatively soon, with ample opportunities to establish highly accretive options for shareholders and the company. As a REIT, we have paid out $5.8 billion in dividends since 2021. Compounded capital in that context could potentially elevate stock value significantly.

Giuliano Bologna, Analyst

This has been very helpful. I will yield and return to the queue.

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

Thanks.

Eric Hagen, Analyst

Hi, thanks. Good morning, guys. Looking at the investment portfolio and excluding the leverage related to MSR hedging, what is the leverage in that portfolio? How stable do you feel it is, and is there room to apply new leverage if NewRez is spun out?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

Most of the balance sheet is primarily focused on two asset classes: MSRs and our hedges in the mortgage company. The overall balance sheet includes various swaps, treasuries, and agency mortgages. To answer simply, we can increase leverage, but only if we deem it prudent, and presently, we don’t feel a need to do so given our earnings capabilities.

Eric Hagen, Analyst

Thank you. Regarding Shellpoint, I'm curious about its increasing relevance to the earnings narrative at NewRez. Can you share how much you are subservicing them and the earnings contribution from Shellpoint? Are there growth opportunities, even if mortgage rates remain steady and new supply is limited?

Baron Silverstein, President of NewRez

There's ongoing demand for various non-agency products, such as non-QM, making the competitive landscape robust. Additionally, we continue to be the leading special servicer, indicating growth potential. We're observing opportunities with banks and our existing relationships that are effective in capturing market share. Our pipeline remains strong in 2025, indicating continued market share growth, especially amid the past year's disruptions. Our efforts in third-party servicing reflect this optimism.

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

Thanks, Eric.

Operator, Operator

The next question comes from Jay McCanless with Wedbush. Please go ahead.

Jay McCanless, Analyst

Good morning. Thanks for taking my questions. I have two: First, regarding the general market outlook for 2025. The MBA data shows mortgage credit availability still at levels consistent with 2012-2013. In your view, will mortgage credit availability increase this year, or will it depend on developments involving the GSE?

Baron Silverstein, President of NewRez

Michael, you have discussed this in previous calls. Our forecast expects rates to remain elevated, which means consumers will need to navigate affordability issues when purchasing new homes. This, in turn, drives our focus on the existing book. We see housing inventory trends indicating continued movement among consumers. Therefore, our outlook projects a larger purchase market, and we anticipate growing demand for home equity loans and cash-out refinancing. Any influence from government programs won't necessarily affect 2025 significantly, as affordability remains a priority. Overall, mortgage credit availability is likely to stay constant.

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

Exactly. The costs associated with insurance in homeownership have risen considerably as well. Rates have increased, and we have experienced events such as the Los Angeles fires.

Jay McCanless, Analyst

Thank you. Regarding the infrastructure side, given changes in the current administration, how does this affect your approach to investments in this field? Are there specific headlines or developments we should watch for so we can gauge whether to expect increased investment in this space?

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

That's a thoughtful query. It is early to fully assess. You've heard that the administration has intentions to limit offshore drilling. However, our partners and I are not experts in that area, but we do have world-class guides on this topic. There’s a multi-trillion-dollar investment opportunity tied to the urgent need for capital in this area. We recognize the shifting landscape, and based on my discussions with very large hyperscalers, the power demand is significant. We need capital and expertise to explore these opportunities, as the shortage of power will remain a challenge.

Jay McCanless, Analyst

Thanks for your insights. I appreciate it.

Matthew Ertner, Analyst

Good morning, and thank you for taking my question. Looking at NewRez, the funded volume continues to increase quarter over quarter, exhibiting strong growth amidst competition. How do you prioritize market share growth in the non-QM and home equity space? What are your growth tactics and investments in that sector?

Baron Silverstein, President of NewRez

Market share growth is rooted in our investment in technology, brand development, and team capabilities. Those are the primary initiatives driving our strategy. We see significant potential focusing on our existing homeowners. While we engage in customer acquisition on our distributed retail platforms, our call centers are focused on maximizing the potential of our current portfolio. I can assure you we’re making substantial investments across those initiatives.

Matthew Ertner, Analyst

Thank you for that insight. I appreciate it.

Operator, Operator

This concludes our question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Michael Nierenberg for any closing remarks.

Michael Nierenberg, CEO

Thank you for all your thoughtful questions. We are excited about our business’s current standing and appreciate every aspect of our different business lines. We look forward to providing updates after Q1. Thank you, and have a great day ahead.

Nick Santoro, CFO

Thanks, everyone.

Operator, Operator

The conference is now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.