Conference Transcript - SBDS 2026-06-11

Operator

Next up, we've got Solo Brands, and Solo is a three-part advisor's client, so we're working hard with these guys with some introductions, and happy to have them here today. I think the materials say NYC traded, it's actually an OTCQB traded with a ticker of SBDS, and this is a really exciting story. So the management team is executing a transformation and expansion with a lot of exciting stuff going on domestically as well as internationally for innovative products. So the team is John Larson, Chief Executive Officer, Laura Coffey, Chief Financial Officer, and Mark Anderson, IR and Treasury, on the first row. I'll hand it off to the team.

John Larson, CEO

Thanks, Andy, and good afternoon. Appreciate everyone taking the time to hear about our story. It's been a journey for sure, but I think we're on the right track and happy to answer any questions you have with the meeting right here. I'll run through a handful of slides quickly. I've done this about 10 times today, so who knows? I might start speaking when it's not on a slide, but I'll do the best I can here. With that, let's talk about what Solo Brands really is. It's a portfolio of products, really an outdoor lifestyle brand, but it's about developing connection between family, between friends. The fun part of running a company like this is I use all the products. So on Tuesday night, I had a cookout at my house, and I was griddling steaks on our griddle, which out there and people coming out, and my buddy's like, oh, my God, this is great. It's so easy to clean up. You know, it's stainless steel. It's a spectacular product. Last weekend, lost something in a lake, jumped in a boat that our water sports division makes really quick with my wife and paddled out there to pick it up. And then that night had a campfire sitting out there on our patio with our fire pits. So it's really fun brands, as we'll talk about on the next slide here. Great net promoter scores. And the reason I came to join the board of this brand a year and a half ago was because I thought these are enthusiast brands. That's my space and wheelhouse. They're omnichannel, so you have to balance retail with DTC. I've had a long career in building DTC within the companies I'm at. but more importantly they're just great products as my daughters say dad we won't date someone if they don't wear chubbies I mean of course they got it you know and uh you know a little side story and I do this occasionally you know my daughter said she just graduated college I'm out of the bar dad and um all of a sudden some comments made and a guy walks by me and goes we could cut your dad's lawn for chubbies you know she's like what how do they even know my dad works there you know but those are the kind of brands we have ones that people recognize are really excited about. If I dimensionalize it for you, we're 50% solo stove. That's fire pits, that's griddles, that's coolers. It's kind of the outdoor part of consumer products. We're 40% chubbies. That's menswear, started in suits, but has now moved into polos and athletic pants. Shorts is where it really started, and bathing suits is where its wheelhouse is. And then we have a water sports division it's about 10 percent of our revenue roughly 30 million dollars more in the kayaks paddle boards kind of that kind of space has some really interesting patented this oru kayak is an origami kayak that you actually pack like a suitcase it weighs 25 pounds you can put it in your trunk and walk like this open it up three straps and it's a kayak on the water all patented so really unique cool brand let's talk about the first quarter's results 63 million in revenue, $1.6 million of EBITDA. Last year, we were at $77 million of revenue and $3.5 million of EBITDA. So obviously not the kind of results we're looking for, but I can dimensionalize it a little bit. Last year, we had tremendous load in in March for Chubbies for their retail sales at their retail stores. Some of that moved into Q2 of this year. So with that, you know, sales down $14 million, EBITDA down two, fully dedicated to tariffs that we ate in the first quarter of this year we would have been three and a half or four million without tariffs and some timing. With that we've continued significant structural cost reductions. I'd say the big reductions are on payroll and headcount and in fulfillment. So for Q2 of this year starting April 1 we took another eight to ten million dollars out in terms of payroll. You'll see in the charts ahead how we have significantly reduced structural costs to where this company will just deliver any dollar revenue right to the bottom line, 30 or 40 cents. Significant strides in AI. I worked as a consultant with an AI-based company out of Silicon Valley before I joined this board, and that was to do introductions in the auto industry. So I believe in the power of AI and the tools and what they can do. So as we came into the company, we have pushed very aggressively into the space, and it's in our everyday operations. I would say we're a five or a six on a scale of one to ten on our way to being at eight as it comes to AI. I'll talk about that a little bit more. Launched four new products, March 12th. Steelfire 22, the Summit 19, and the Summit 27 are now in our top 10 of sales on DTC. So the new products are being received extremely well. We just got the Windchill 30 in stock. We launched a women's brand for Chubbies called Cheekies. So Chubbies is having an argument with Cheekies and they're talking. We got all kinds of stuff going on, but it was fun. 10 months ago we decided why don't we take a step into the women's apparel space and within 10 months designed engineered manufactured and had it in Dick's sporting goods 10 minutes from the day we said go that's we're small we're scrappy we're pushing new products into new categories and we had the IEPA tariffs ruling refunds are in process you know we announced in our 10 Q was it The Q or the K, I can't remember. We have roughly $10 million, yeah, the Q, first quarter Q. Coming back in refunds, we've received $2 million already, so significant opportunity there. It doesn't mean we don't still have tariff challenges, but it's certainly lightened the load a bit for us. And we are delisted from New York Stock Exchange based on market cap value. We're appealing that process. We have a number of initiatives in place looking at deleveraging with some other opportunities that could put us in compliance very quickly or maybe if two people buy stock here we'll be in compliance quickly. We're right on the edge of it to be honest with you in terms of 15 million market cap. So let's talk about the first quarter. I'm always about being fully transparent. As we said before, 77 to 63 million dollars in sales. Our gross profit pressured a little bit both with tariffs and simply because your revenue did go down by 14 million dollars. But I want you to notice SG&A going down dramatically, another $6 million out year over year. So, you know, Q125, $3, $3.5 million this year, rounded up to $2 million, $1.5 million. So it dropped down a little bit here, but with a $14 million decline in revenue and a $1.5 to $2 million decline in revenue, it does show that our cost structure has come down dramatically. And with a little revenue boost, we'll have significant EBITDA gain. I'll just give you numbers here. Roughly 40 cents on the dollar, give or take, would flow to the bottom line of EBITDA for revenue. Had we been at 77 instead of 63, 40 cents on the dollar on 14 million is $5.5 million. The EBITDA, we'd have been coming in closer to $7 million versus three of the prior year. So that just shows you on an apples-to-apples basis, our EBITDA level is about double on a revenue basis. Here's a walk. Part of the transparency, $3.5 million last year. $7 million in margin related to sales and a little bit of mix because we did have a little heavier Costco in that first quarter. Marketing spend and payroll savings showing over $5 million in savings there getting to the 1.6 that I did talk to you about before. So what's the update? Give me some good news. You look at that first quarter and you go okay it's kind of a sleeper. Really strong sales in April and May. So instead of being down 20% that we were in the first quarter, we're up year over year for April and May in terms of sales. What really drove it? The new product launched in March. The new Cheeky's line came out in March, as well as the all-new Fire Pit line, as well as the new Griddle line. So the new products are being accepted well. Sales are up for Q2 at this point in time. We've got tariff refunds, as I said, almost 2 million we've received now with 8 million plus more on the way and we're reiterating our guidance which we put out at the end of the first quarter and that is revenue of 280 to 310 and EBITDA 240 to 30 million or virtually up 50 percent year over year again simply because of the cost structure if you look at the fact that we're guiding revenue flat to slightly down yet regarding we're guiding EBITDA up 50%. That just shows you, again, the cost structure changes we have put in in the last 15 to 18 months, I would say. Okay, so what are the biggest operating initiatives? Continued structural cost reduction and simplification. On the distribution side and warehouse, as we're about 50% direct-to-consumer as a company in digital-based sales, we had warehouses of 10 warehouses over a year ago. Right now we have five on our way to three. So complete consolidation, a 3PL partner, which has been really helpful for some Amazon business, saved us almost $3 million a year. And now this new initiative is going to save us an additional $3 million a year. So we're continuing to look at cost structure that goes right to the bottom line while we're really pushing to drive growth. The next bullet is growth-focused innovation and core adjacencies. You know, we own the fire pit space. It blew up during COVID. Our fire pits are great. The problem is our fire pits are great. They have a lifetime warranty. They're made from stainless steel. They work forever. They last forever. We sold 4 million of them. Those 4 million people still use them and love them. They don't really need a new one. No planned obsolescence when this company started up from scratch here. So what we have to do is really build in adjacencies. we have 250,000 five-star reviews our NPS scores are 73 people love the brand so how do we extend that brand into some adjacencies and so the things we've done is number one let's come out with an all-new fire pit lineup to try to move people up or bring some more people into the category so it's called the summit series lower profile so you can see the flame an instant start feature where you drop a proprietary fluid in the top it goes underneath you don't need kindling, you don't need work, you don't need anything, you put it on, you light it, it runs underneath, gets hotter quicker, gets smokeless quicker, makes it very simple as one, two, three. Stylistically, it looks much more beautiful. We built an open frame underneath. People used to think it wouldn't happen, but it would discolor their deck. It would ruin their patio if they set it on. It looked like the fire was sitting on the ground, so this flow-through design allows people to realize that's not the case so and oh by the way those products are doing spectacularly since they've launched they're now our number two and number three selling skews are part of the new summit series for the entire solo stove lineup chubbies as i said expanded into the women's line into cheekies excited about that going more broadly next year it's already in dick's sporting goods shields has already put in significant orders for next year to line up their portfolio and we're excited about expanding the women's lineup further. And water sports has actually been the biggest growth story so far this year. Expanded their water sports line dramatically using the Atama Mahama license, which we had for years. Costco has now brought us in to be their primary supplier of water sports. We added some products I'll show you later, and we are significantly up in sales in water sports, with Costco being a big driver. Discipline, international focus, and expansion. An international business is 7% of our total revenue. It's 21% of Yeti growing at 25% a year. It's 38% of Shark Ninja growing at over 20% a year. International is where all of our competition set, whether it's in apparel or whether it's in consumer goods, is growing dramatically. We're at 7%. We started out as two domestic brands. You had two kids in a garage making a campfire so they could light it when they're camping to cook their food and cook their coffee. You had four guys out of college decided to start a shorts brand because they used to have parties where they'd all dress up and wear wild clothes and then they decided to make a company around it.

Laura Coffey, CFO

But these are very domestic

John Larson, CEO

out of Austin, Texas. So the idea is we are so underrepresented internationally. It's become apparent to me I look at the growth that's occurred internationally. So we've been working on this six or eight months. I now have three distribution or rep partners signed up across the world, Europe, UK, Australia, in Asia Pacific for Chubbies. Water Sports, a little more Asia Pacific. We have a web platform that's set up and works across those markets for solo stoves. We've moved to Salesforce. I have Salesforce in Australia. I have it in Canada. I have it in Europe. I have it in the UK. I have it here, which gives us latitude to sell direct there. And we've now set up a distribution partner, and I should say more a fulfillment partner with warehouses in Europe, in the UK, moving into Spain with further growth opportunities. So we can immediately deliver for Amazon and be Amazon Prime in those markets. We can immediately deliver DTC. And we've signed the distribution partner that grew Yeti from zero to 21% of their business in Europe. And Yeti has now taken that all in-house. And the partner came to us and said, we think your brand would be spectacular. Negotiated and just put them in play as our main partner in Europe. So really excited about international growth. and we think it's all going to flow to the bottom line. Also, tariffs are lower. International, we can deliver direct from our supply chain partners direct into Europe and we avoid the tariffs that we have here in the U.S. So people say, oh, the margin's going to cost you a lot if you use a partner there. And I'm like, nope, I want to get to market right away. They have the relationships and the people and I have the margin room to do it because of the lower tariffs in those international markets. And the last place is building a scalable AI infrastructure. as I talked about before we are sold and what AI can do for efficiency what it does for instant market research on product design what it can do for you in terms of marketing creative design placement of our media where you're getting the effective real-time return we are hooked up live I can turn on my PC I can go right into a cloud interface with all of our data with real-time access I can look at seasonality sales trend I just put an incentive on are the sales up, what's the return on it. It's fortunate and it's unfortunate for my team because they get AI messages from me all the time questioning what we're doing or what we could do differently. But I really allow, I really believe it's allowing us to scale dramatically as we move forward while the fact that we've taken out almost 40% of cost in headcount in the last, you know, 15 to 18 months. Okay, I think I've covered AI and technology. I don't need to hit it again. We did have a hackathon workshop. I do want to mention that. So we had the whole team in for the solo stove division, had our five key initiatives for the year, some of which I'm touching on here. Put 10 people each in a conference room on each initiative, went in there, recorded it with Fathom, which is AI-based, which summarized their recording. They came to a decision, told them to take the summary of the recording, put it into Claude, present an executive level management report, and come out and present what they would do going forward to accelerate each one of those initiatives. So everyone in our company was involved in how it worked, how it got translated, how AI can do it. We then spent the afternoon and we sent everyone away by function. Instead of how you improve the operations in your function using this. Same thing, went through it, worked with the LLM, went through their mapping of

Laura Coffey, CFO

the processes that they do day-to-day.

John Larson, CEO

Asked the LLM, how can I improve this? What could we do to make this more efficient? Came back with a presentation and and we've got items going in play right now. So trying to really push the AI piece. New leadership and talent. As we looked at international being a major growth opportunity and some challenges on domestic retail at the stove division, we've been consolidating key functions across all three of the solo brand divisions. You know, we're pretty much three divisions at a point in time acquired. You had chubbies over here, apparel, you had solo stoves starting with fire pits other accessories and then you had a water sports division and the idea is how do we bring sales together sales administration together how do we get more efficient how do we have people that can talk to each of the stores and oddly enough we sell through a lot of the same retailers big sporting goods is the biggest carry of solo stove it's the biggest carry of chubbies you go to shields similar things out there you go to academy similar so we have some very similar partners in place. So we ended up hiring a new SVP of sales. He's been here two weeks. What's his growth? International, Europe, building businesses and growing them internationally. What's his background? Heavy in apparel, used to be igloo, heavy in consumer products, knows our buyers. I'm having dinner with him day one. And he's like, oh, the buyer from Dick's Sporting Goods just texted me and said, I heard you got the new role. I'm so glad to work with You had Solo Stove, looking forward to meet with you. So bringing that talent in and what I have found, people want to work at this company bad. You might look at our balance sheet and say, at 10 leverage, are you kidding me? At the same time, every one of them looks at the brand and goes, the opportunity is huge. And when I walk through transparently, here's the challenge. I'm going to have to take even to $50, $60 million in two years. That's what we need to do. They're like, we are in. We completely believe it will happen. And these are very senior executives that are looking for equity growth. But given our market cap, I can't give them much value. But they all believe, oh, my gosh, we're going to unlock this equity value. We'll get the $60 million EBITDA, and the stock price will be $25 or $30, and this is going to be a windfall. So very excited about the salesperson we brought in, very excited about who's going to come in to grow Chubbies internationally and grow a women's line where he's done that before. and brought a young lady in to be chief digital officer on DTC, given we've got multiple platforms, moving to how do we optimize that. She's so fired up, she goes, we can double this. We'll get the right platforms. I've got the tools we want to put in place. Let's get more efficient here. And every additional DTC conversion is the biggest dollars you can add to the bottom line of profitability. So very excited about adding talent into exactly the upside revenue streams that we're looking at in profit streams so excited about that and I already talked about international so I won't hit it again. Structural cost I mentioned this as well three million in annualized savings just identified during this year starting at the end of the third quarter it will be fully operational we've reduced 50 percent of our distribution center square footage put 3PL partners where they're more efficient have better buying capability with FedEx etc and they wanted our business so bad they gave us tremendous incentives to move so I couldn't financially walk away from it so it looks like three million a year in savings so talking about products it all starts with products it's a busy slide so I apologize for that but if you look in the middle of this slide here every one of those products is new in the last year so that's solo stove so that's talking about people thought oh you're going through this restructuring it's going to be difficult. What are you guys investing in? I tell you what we're investing in, brand new products. So whether it's an all new line of fire pits that sets the standard, whether it's a new line of griddles, whether it's a new line of coolers, those have all come out in less than the last year. And we even got the infinity flame on the slide, which was missing. It's a propane version of a fire pit launched in the fourth quarter last year is now the number one selling skew for our company. So we're doing an up level version of that for Q4 this year and very excited about the continued escalation of that product. So lots of new products on the solo stove side. Here's a more detailed picture of infinity flame and what it does. It's actually quite cool. So it's propane. There's a lot of propane fire pits out there, but what we did was we made the flame in the center boil up just like it's a wood-burning fireplace. So if you look at the picture there on the right-hand side, it's a large flame that comes up. In our wood-burning fire pits at the top, you have a secondary flame, which we mimic with those candlelight lights you see on the left side of the slide there. That's exactly what our wood-burning fire pit looks like. So we've named the flame, we've trademarked our flame, and we put it into propane, which people really haven't seen before. So I'm excited about the continued growth in that product. These are the fire pits I was talking about, the new Summit series. There's the look on the right-hand side. You see the built-in stand. You see the lower profile than we normally had before there, and this is the one that has the Instalight program. I could have brought you a video, but sometimes they're a little glitchy here. So we now have a new 19, 24, and 27. We call it the Summit Series. It's now taken over our sales leadership versus our core fire pits, the Legacy Series, which we still have. It's a $100 premium over our Legacy by size, but ironically, the cost of goods is the same. because of the steel tariffs, we lowered the profile on the side, so we used less steel. It took a lot of work with Airflow to make it work and burn as good, but therefore I have a $100 premium with the same cost of goods sold, I increased margin, it's offsetting the tariff issues we've had, and it's being really well accepted in the marketplace. The windchill cooler, we don't launch a product unless it has a unique advantage over everything else out there. Now, I won't say it's selling like Yeti, but what it does is it is a portable air conditioner that's also a cooler for your drinks. So if you're sitting out with your kids at soccer, softball, whatever it is all summer and you're hot, you hit a button on here, it blows tremendously cool air like a mobile air conditioner at you. You can hit it on mist and it blows a big misting spray. What we have is videos of all the kids running off the soccer field and all they do is run to this thing and stick their faces in it. and so if you're a parent that doesn't like too many kids don't get it but otherwise it's going to be the magnet at those events and then steel fire griddles as I said I was cooking on these Tuesday nights and cooking the previous week at the office on lunch making burgers for people at work at they said do you want to come out and have a smash burger I didn't know I was going to be the guy cooking out there but we were showing the new sales guy the new product great product the whole difference is the material it's stainless steel you don't have to put butter down you can drop anything on it it comes off immediately it cleans up immediately this is what professional restaurants have this is what very high-end outdoor kitchens that are charging four or five grand for the unit would would do we stuck to our premise of keeping it with tariffs it was a lot of work we had to redesign the 22 a little bit to make sure the cost structure was in line but they are now taking off and they're winning awards left and right so we feel good about that for the last group of products for stove on chubbies what we're doing is really moving much more into the polo space many different materials in polo one surprising category that has grown up for us has been the golf space not the high-end country clubs that you guys go to but on the municipal courses where guys kind of wear some wild patterns and run out there chubbies is really really picking up sales in that particular market. In addition, the kids' market is built up. So all the guys who grew up on Chubbies over the last 16 years now have little kids, and now the kids' market is exploding. It's in Dick's Sporting Goods now, and they're getting matching suits with the father and son kind of theme going on. So kids is growing up quite a bit for us. We're moving into a denim line this fall, and we're updating our NFL. We got big associations with the NFL, but now we're changing our patterns four times a year instead of just once a year and then far right not to be lost is the cheeky slide so it's doing well losing my voice a little bit here sorry in the water sports division the biggest opportunity here is our new products we've had the tommy bahama license for years we've used it on our product in certain retailers and it's become a big hit at costco now we're the primary water sports provider for costco on the left hand side we've had paddle boards in kayak adjustable boards for sale in Costco previously the Marlin but now the new water hammock and waterproof bags have gone in the Costco this year doubled our sales in the Costco some 400,000 weatherproof water bags waterproof bags in place right there had to stand up a whole new plant for that with a supply chain partner as as well as the water hammocks. Last part, I think I've hit this on international for you. This just happens to mention the actual partners that we've signed contracts with for growth. And in the end, we talked about AI and how important it is to what we're doing. The item is already in motion. I talked about that our marketing mix model for optimizing media are built by solo AI tool that we've already deployed internally and it's rolling out across the organization. Corel AI, it's a real-time ad performance measurement that's going well with a partner that we activated actually in the fourth quarter of last year. Automation in our corporate sales, immediate response to input leads, immediate lead generation going out automatically, et cetera. Okay, these are some of the partners we have. I won't go through this in detail, but we use Chef Timonials with the new griddles that come out. We've gone to high-end chefs and challenged them to say, look at our product, tell us what you think. And we get nothing but great reviews. These are on YouTube. Chef Leah Cohen is great, rich. Nookie's been out there talking about what a great tool it is. Miguel is like, man, this is as good as it gets on a griddle. And they're all out there using them on their own right now. The product is really, really good. We just aren't known for the griddle space. That's my job and my challenge to make sure we get the awareness out there. But we're winning endless awards. If you look at this page, Gear Junkie named us the best outdoor griddle, Men's Health named us the best griddle in a griddle loft, Barbecue Labs had all these griddles. They have like a 25-minute video if you really want to watch it, but in the end, they pick out one that's the winner, and it's us. And so it's not Weber, it's not Blackstone, it's not the other Traeger that's out there. Nope, it's Solo Stove and our new griddle that's out there. Just ease, usability, very cool racetrack burner system, even heat throughout, super easy cleanup. So we're excited. We're excited about the awards we're winning and what people are saying about our products. Now we just need to build that revenue growth. So quick wrap-up in summary, you know, stabilized the business in 25, really reduced our cost structure dramatically. That full benefit of cost structure is coming through in 26. New products are driving the growth that we do have. Still some challenges on the core business that Solo Stove once had with retailers, so trying to build that back up with our new products. International expansion where we see immediate return with capital discipline. I'm an ex-finance guy. I'm a recovered finance guy. I care about profits. I care about the bottom line. I care about cash flow. So that's every initiative we look at, that's how we measure it. It needs to return to the bottom line. If I get excited and go after revenue, Laura reminds me that we're our cash flow company, so she keeps me in line for sure. It's our clear priorities, expand EBITDA, increase cash flow, and reduce leverage. So with that, I'll just make one little mention here I said at the beginning. We need to grow into our capital structure. We need to deleverage the company. We're looking at initiatives to deleverage, you know, nothing to announce here. In terms of growing the company into where we need to be, I feel very confident that we can grow this company. It will deliver to the bottom line. It's up to us, though, to make sure we do grow the top line, but it will flow right to the bottom line. So, again, a comparison. In 24, over $450 million of revenue, we are delivering $30 million EBITDA. If we get to $370 million of revenue, we'll get between $55 and $60 million of EBITDA. Then we're at the spot where we're delivering shareholder returns. who are covering the debt structure we have and it makes sense our goal our challenge how do you build revenue by 50 to 60 million dollars at this point in time international all the new products we got rolling out a new women's line in chubbies a new leader on DTC who can take that next level of effectiveness at our platform when it's 50% of our revenue to make sure we are delivering everything we can to the bottom line there in a new head of sales that's well-versed hugely experienced in international growth to focus on the global opportunity we have. So with all that in line, that's what we as a team need to do to deliver shareholder value. And that's my story. Yes, sir.

Laura Coffey, CFO

Thank you. Oh, no.

John Larson, CEO

You're that consultant that put that structure in place. No, you're recovered. I'm just teasing.

Laura Coffey, CFO

Right.

John Larson, CEO

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let me rephrase the question briefly. Let's see. Your products are spectacular. We love it. Why aren't you doing a better job running the company? How can your financials be so challenged when in fact the products are as good as they are? Let me take you through a little bit of background on the company. Originally our stock ticker was DTC. This company was being developed as a platform. A platform with warehouses and websites to compete with Amazon to allow premium brands to have another place to breathe. That was a vision back in 21. You put 10 warehouses globally. You started investing dramatically in an infrastructure to support something that might be 15 brands, okay? You then stated you wanted to be a billion-dollar company. You were close to $500 million company. So you start investing in people, infrastructure, in deals, New York Islanders, $20 million to sponsor your stadium here. Snoop Dogg, $10 million here. There was just a lot of big swings. This was a management team that had gone from $50 to $300 million in one division. So taking big swings was working when you were in a category with all this acceleration. What happened when I came in is we're putting an infrastructure for a billion dollar company and our revenue is going from 400 to 300 that's what we've gone after and we have taken out so much cost that I'll take you back again to the thought process here at 360 I can make 60 million you'd say okay that's that's a percent EBITDA that makes sense as a company you know getting above 16 17 percent 370 ish before at 450 we were making 30 million so you're at 8 percent are single digits. So we've taken a ton of cost out. We won't stop taking more out. I just took 10 million out in a headquarter, the team did, April 1st, just in this year. That's when you had 38 million, and now you're down to 28 million. So we're continuing to take structural cost out. Yeah, you're telling me. Yeah, but there's more to come. There's more to come with efficiencies, and quite frankly, AI is making it very palatable to do that. Very helpful. No, I appreciate that very much. I mean, look, if we had $100 million in debt, you'd be saying we're all good, and there'd be some shareholder value and a stock price wouldn't be at four. But the reality is we have way too much debt from bad decisions that were made before on big swings. We acquired divisions and wrote them off for $80 million. All those things went into a balance sheet that's challenging. But we got the right plan to grow ourselves out of it into the balance sheet. I appreciate it. I know I'm running over time. Anyone else with questions? Yes, sir. I think that's a good question, and I think that's something our board discusses fairly regularly. There's not a simple way to go private unless you want someone who's going to take you private and buy it, and at this point in time, who wants to buy $240 million of debt? So it's a little more challenging than that simply because of the balance sheet, but I agree with you. I've run private companies. I've been the chairman of a number of public companies. It does cause some issues, but quite frankly, we are where we are. We just need to deliver the bottom line. The liquidity will be appreciated by shareholders.