Earnings Call Transcript - SPWR Q3 2025

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

Good morning. My name is Sioban Hickie, VP of IR, and I would like to welcome everyone to SunPower's Third Quarter Earnings Call. I will review a few housekeeping items before turning the call over to our CEO, Dr. T.J. Rodgers. To begin, this call is being recorded, and a replay will be available on our company's Investor Relations website within the Events section. Please note today's presentation may contain projections and other forward-looking statements. These statements are subject to known and unknown risks and uncertainties that may cause actual results to differ from those expressed or implied in our statements. Also on today's call, we may discuss certain non-GAAP financial measures. A reconciliation of any differences between these non-GAAP financial measures and the most directly comparable GAAP financial measures are available within our press release. Lastly, we will hold a question-and-answer session after the end of formal remarks today. For those watching via the webcast, you may submit a written question at any time via the submission box located at the right-hand side of your screen. I will now turn the call over to T.J. Rodgers, SunPower's Chairman and CEO.

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

Thank you, Sioban. We have our quarterly report for the third quarter. Our logo features the Helios, the airplane that set a record in 2001 for taking off using solar power from SunPower solar cells. These cells allow light to enter through the clear plastic wings from both sides, and no other airplane has matched this. I'm trying to acquire one of these planes, which is now obsolete, and would like to display it in our lobby, but its 247-foot wingspan presents a challenge. I've connected with an engineer who has one in a hangar and was part of the project. He shared a photo of the plane flying at around 80,000 feet, well above the atmosphere. Dan, our administrative officer at SunPower, has just joined me. He's had a distinguished career in marketing and sales and helped lead the Sunder acquisition we'll discuss today. He and I are currently the only two in the company above the rank of Executive Vice President. While it may seem unusual, this structure allows for effective micromanagement without the need for extensive justification. I've sent out our report along with a new logo, and I've even created a commemorative postage stamp. Now, let’s go into the details of the profit and loss statement, which is straightforward but carries significant information. We experienced growth in the last quarter despite some challenges, specifically with the ITC impacting results. This was due to two factors: the ITC has not worsened and people are adapting to it, and the Sunder acquisition resulted in a few days of sub-revenue, which affected our figures. These factors contributed to an increase in our numbers. I will talk about next quarter shortly. We observed a good gross margin this quarter, but I should mention that our gross margin isn't truly at 48%. We've made some advantageous purchases from SunPower that add about 4 to 5 points to our gross margin, which will likely decrease with the Sunder merger, so I recommend against including that figure in future projections. Our expenses for the quarter were $23 million, up from $17 million last quarter, which may not look great at face value. However, our costs have remained flat or slightly decreased, and we established reserves that impacted our quarter positively. We've effectively streamlined our operations and generated strong gross profit. I instructed the team to tidy up the accounts this quarter, eliminating old receivables and addressing a finance company that went bankrupt by placing reserves on questionable line items. This led us to report an operating income of $3.1 million, which is a strong performance, bringing our operating income margin up to 4.5% of revenue with a target of 10%. I believe this is completely achievable, and I will outline our plans moving forward. Regarding cash flow, we've maintained a balance of $10 to $11 million, which is a comfortable position for me despite my previous experience of managing larger funds in my career. However, this quarter, we made substantial payments on our convertible debentures, reducing our cash to $4 million, so I'm currently in the process of raising more funds. In summary, our revenue rose to $70 million from $67.5 million, with profits increasing to $3.12 million from $2.42 million in the previous quarter. This graph illustrates our operating income defined by GAAP, but I need to clarify certain corrections. Our GAAP profit shows a negative $2.3 million due to $5.4 million in stock compensation and amortization charges. Most of this stock compensation led to dilution but isn't fully expensed as these payments benefit our employees. We have 83.11 million shares and issue stock options to our employees as a better model for shareholder value. The remaining charge relates to the depreciation of the SunPower name and our operating system, Albatross, which we had to reacquire. We are reporting based on our adjusted earnings and are focused on growth since acquiring the assets. After overcoming previous losses, we generated $320 million in revenue post-bankruptcy. We still made a profit, despite the challenges faced, due to our commitment to controlling costs. Looking ahead, while Sunder’s revenue won’t significantly contribute in the first quarter due to their business model, we're already beginning our planning and integration with positions being filled. We're anticipating a revenue increase to above $80 million next quarter, which is optimistic. However, there's uncertainty regarding the exact backlog we'll have for Q1 and our shipping rates. Our booking rates have doubled, yet we have a cautious outlook as we analyze potential scenarios. Our minimum projections indicate we should earn at least $2 million in Q1, and I believe we will do well on revenue as we transition into the typically stronger spring quarter. I've often discussed our approach to company staffing, emphasizing efficient hiring practices. We initially brought on a manageable number of employees and have been carefully adjusting our workforce since, leading to a current headcount of 829, which includes 19 new employees from Sunder. This system facilitates healthy discussions on hiring needs and resource allocation, ultimately benefiting our company culture. The red bars on the graph represent revenue generated per employee annually, which we observe closely as it influences our overall performance. Our divisions, such as our sales and fulfillment organization, are starting to see increased revenue, while Sunder has a notably higher revenue per employee rate, around $4.2 million a year, due to its advantageous contractor sales model. Currently, our efficiency metrics are improving, with a projected revenue per employee jumping past $400,000 for the first time. We've targeted specific areas for improvement in efficiency based on industry standards and consultant benchmarks. As we continue refining our operational processes, we're committed to maintaining profitability and enhancing overall performance. The snapshot from our recent report indicates a long-term stable price range but hints at potential for growth, which we'll monitor closely moving forward.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

37.7 million.

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

37 million shares traded today. In our effort to raise funds, I am looking to instill confidence in some major investors to transition our trading from retail to institutional shareholders, which has been our previous focus, and they have supported us. I'm not complaining. Regarding our share price, this is a representation of market cap relative to revenue, specifically the price-to-sales ratio. It essentially translates to revenue for a quarter times 4, divided by share count, which gives us the share price. Our peers, which include a mix of good and bad companies, are trading at around a 2 ratio, and the entire industry is experiencing a downward trend. We have given shareholders our employee shares, and our executives hold a considerable number of shares, so we will benefit personally when the company does well. While our headquarters is in Utah, which is less common, there is growing acceptance of our model. For instance, even considering our most recent low quarter, we can take 70 and multiply it by 4. If we manage to increase our price-to-sales ratio to 1, still beneath our peers, with our official 83.11 million shares, the share price would come to $3.37. This is not an unrealistic goal; it’s a calculation that should be achievable as soon as we attract significant investors who believe in us. The reasons it hasn’t happened yet include longstanding concerns about our viability, which are understandable. At 77, I don’t need to do this for financial reasons, and I'm in this to win. Another crucial issue is the misinformation from retail market data companies. I recently spoke at an event in Boston where I noticed an investor using outdated information about a bankrupt company when deciding on our worth. These companies claim to provide valuable insights but often deliver misleading guidance, which we've begun to address more vocally. We reached out to CNET, a company whose core value is the truthful dissemination of information, and they acknowledged our concerns. They understood how it negatively impacts us as a new company trying to establish a positive reputation, and impressively, they resolved the issue within two weeks. This gives us a reference point to advocate for recognition based on our current performance rather than the past of the old company. Eric Nielsen, our new EVP of Sales, has a strong background and is enthusiastic and dynamic. Previously the President of Sunder, he is now an essential part of our team, reporting to Dan, who is also a key figure in our company. Since Dan is an expert in sales, we’ve seen improved performance with him onboard. SunPower's acquisition of Sunder Energy positions us as the #5 residential solar company, expanding our reach from 22 to 45 states and increasing our contractor count significantly. Last week, I followed up on our booking rates, and found they have more than doubled. However, it's important to note that a double increase in bookings results in a 1.3 times increase in revenue due to the nature of the industry, where bookings generate 30% of revenue and the rest comes from converting those bookings into systems. Currently, our new bookings pipeline is being filled, as previous bookings were assigned elsewhere before Sunder joined us. I just want to caution you about potentially high projections, so when I miss forecasts in the future, you understand the context. Now, let's hear more about Sunder from Dan.

Dan Myers, EVP of Sales

So there's 2 things I'd like you to take away from this. First off is that Sunder knows what they're doing in this space. They are the acknowledged experts in how to hire, motivate, drive, retain and fire, when necessary, a 1099 sales force. This shows up fast inside of SunPower in the first 3.5 weeks the Sunder team has captured the imagination, frankly, the heart of our existing sales force. They are now totally behind Sunder. They're modifying their behavior. They're modifying their sales strategies to be more like Sunder. So the first thing I'd like you to remember is that Sunder knows what they're doing. They are absolute pros of this, and they are not only contributing to bookings organically from the previous Sunder organization, they are causing an increase in bookings in our SunPower organization. The second thing is that Sunder is strong where we were weak. We were in about 22 states. We're now in 45 states. The important thing to remember there is that there was very little overlap between where Sunder was and where SunPower was. In other words, Sunder was strong in California, Texas, Florida; we were not. So what you're seeing now is no negative synergies in bookings. And as T.J. pointed out before, our booking numbers are extremely strong in Q1. The first 3 weeks were at 120% of plan discounting to Sunder. So it's even more when you add the Sunder bookings on top of that. So we're proud of the bookings. We're proud of the way that the SunPower sales organization is aligning with and joining with the Sunder team.

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

We have a couple more points to discuss. Sunder has been allowed to maintain its own operational practices. Typically, when a company is acquired, the acquiring company dictates how business is done. However, since Sunder excels in certain areas, particularly in Solar Valley, Salt Lake, we encouraged them to uphold their methods. They have a highly effective sales force that excels in recruiting, training, and quickly transforming new hires into productive team members. This reputation has attracted significant interest in joining SunPower's Sunder division, with 232 inquiries and 195 new sign-ups already. Unlike typical situations where dealer scatter happens during company changes, we’re seeing stability. Additionally, we have successfully merged more rapidly than anticipated into a single sales force of 1,744 members, led by Eric. As Dan mentioned, I’ve experienced many acquisitions, especially in semiconductors. When integrating smaller companies, it often involves layoffs and reshuffling for synergy. I recently spoke with our VP of Sales, Evan Dwyer, who confirmed that we now have the right people and systems in place to drive our growth. Looking ahead, we estimate $83 million in revenue and $3.5 million in profits for this quarter, which would be record figures for us. We also have a joint development agreement with REC, the largest panel seller in the U.S. They are currently overwhelmed with demand for their panels, which are of high quality and manufactured in Singapore, so we're discussing how to collaborate effectively moving forward. Enphase is our inverter partner, and they just presented us with a $200,000 battery opportunity. While our company has historically struggled with battery sales, Sunder has a 50% success rate with battery attachments. We’re currently training technicians to install batteries efficiently, and we're gearing up for this new opportunity. Moving forward, I recently formed a mission statement outlining a goal of consistently profitable growth, aiming for $1 billion in revenue by 2028. This growth is feasible through internal growth and acquisitions. I am currently targeting six companies that can enhance our efficiencies and bring new technology to our portfolio. My calculations suggest that even if we allocate shares to these acquisitions, we can achieve a substantial revenue per share, paving the way for a significant share price increase. Furthermore, I believe SunPower will reclaim its position as the top name in solar by introducing advanced technology hardware and software controller systems. For example, Enphase has developed an innovative gallium nitride version of their inverter, which will enhance our offerings. There's a perception that solar systems are just collections of parts; however, it’s crucial that all elements work seamlessly as an integrated electronic system. For example, Enphase provides users with real-time data on their solar panel performance via an app, and there’s now functionality allowing electric cars to be charged solely by solar energy. This represents a significant technological advance and illustrates that we can drive electric cars sustainably. SunPower is committed to re-establishing itself as the leading choice in solar through these innovations. We are now open to questions.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

Our first question today comes from Derek Soderberg from Cantor Fitzgerald.

Derek Soderberg, Analyst

T.J., you just mentioned the $200,000 battery opportunity with Enphase. I'm imagining those are part of a solar install as well, but curious if those are Enphase batteries? And then how should we sort of quantify that opportunity for SunPower?

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

Well, first of all, let me say, as one of only 2 people above the Vice President level, I asked about our AVL, and we kind of had one, but we kind of didn't use it. So I took over the AVL and there's only one battery in it; it's called Enphase. And the reason is exactly what I said, the Enphase battery is the only battery compatible with future electronic systems. So it came through Enphase. I am not at liberty right now to say what it is. It's not new stuff; dig it out. It is an opportunity for an existing group, and I'll leave it there.

Derek Soderberg, Analyst

Got it. So regarding the 2028 goal for the company to achieve a $1 billion run rate in revenue, I just want to clarify that the base for gross margin is 38%. Is that figure including the acquisition of Sunder, and should we expect this gross margin range? Also, T.J., if you can comment on this, how do you foresee earnings per share when the company reaches $1 billion? In the past, you've mentioned a 10% profit margin; is that still applicable at that revenue level?

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

So it's a complex question that presents many opportunities for potential issues. First, the gross margin I'm currently targeting is 38%. This is what I've calculated based on today’s operations at SunPower. At this level, with increased volume, we aim for a 10% operating profit. The next question is about our overall reported gross margin. For the time being, you can think of us as having two distinct entities. Right now, Sunder operates primarily as a sales organization, currently achieving gross margins around 16%. I'm open to taking sales orders and reporting them under SunPower, but I will only recognize 30% of the sales order for total system value. Initially, they are still selling to their existing clients, so we won't see revenue for a while until our production capacity is filled. Additionally, we cannot immediately double our installation workforce from 150 to 300 without proper training, which means there will be a gradual ramp-up this year. The recent press release may have been confusing, as it discusses a transition from sales-only revenue and gross margin to an inclusion of our EPC services. That represents the 38%, or 36% if you're being cautious. Looking ahead, a 50-50 mix of these streams could be a way to project future performance. I'm a firm believer in structured divisions, and moving forward, we’ll provide more concrete numbers. I've indicated that our internal sales teams and the New Homes division, which addresses larger corporate clients, are showing promising revenue and profitability. We also plan to establish a new sales division. One possibility is that our expansive sales team sells directly to us, while Blue Raven handles the installations. Blue Raven would retain 70% of the installation revenue, regardless of the source. This sales force plays a crucial role in our overall success, and it’s a strategy that’s still under development. I've been vague about specifics, but I assure you we're making significant progress. I anticipate we will be profitable in the first quarter, and while I can't provide EPS figures just yet, I can give you an approximate negative amount, but my focus is on operating income for now, which I believe is most relevant for our shareholders.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

Our next question comes from the web. Based on 2Q, SunPower's breakeven revenue has proven defensible in the mid-$60 million revenue range. Post acquisition, do you anticipate any changes to that breakeven revenue level?

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

No. And that's the beauty of it; when you're struggling for orders and facing challenges, someone comes in and says, "I have a group of 20 people. If you hire us, provide stock options, we will double your order rate. That's an obvious choice." So no, the only additional cost to grow will be increasing the fulfillment team, which I want to do. I aim to expand them enough to always have excess orders. We're selling the orders we can't fulfill while executing the orders we can.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

Our next question comes from Gus Richard from Northland Capital. He asks about the duration of the battery contract. How many years is the battery contract for, and if the numbers are correct, it would generate $1 billion in revenue for Enphase?

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

Yes. 50% of what I said is $1 million. I'm hoping for more than that. The opportunity is there, $200,000. 50% is $100,000. When you think battery, think $10,000. There's 5 kilowatt-hour batteries, 10 kilowatt-hour batteries; the average out there is 8.5 kilowatt hours. Batteries now are attractive. Battery-only sales are attractive. The way that happens is, take San Diego Gas & Electric. I mean I like to gripe about PG&E. But they're equally bad. So when we went to NEM 3, Net Electricity Metering revenue 3 or REV3, they stopped paying their customers who had excess power on their roofs and put it back into the grid at the grid rate that they were charging. And they started paying $0.03 a kilowatt hour. Okay. So that means you're losing your power. That means your solar system, new solar system wouldn't have an ROI. Now the other interesting thing is that after 4:00 in the afternoon, they start charging at a high price. I once knew it, but think about $0.40 a kilowatt hour. So they'll give you $0.03 and take $0.40. All right. So you put a battery in; it's called the grid-tied battery. It's the cheapest, the most cost-efficient battery. It sucks up power till noon, saves it and powers your house starting at 4:00. So you pay $0.03 a kilowatt hour that you could have gotten for it, and you give back $0.40 a kilowatt hour. And however big your battery is you get that every day. So it's $0.40 a kilowatt hour times 5-kilowatt hour battery, even small battery, you're looking at $2 a day times 365 days, et cetera. So this thing pays itself quickly. Batteries are going to become more important; that comes from the fundamental problem. The sun only shines on average in North America 5 hours a day. So if you want to use solar power, which actually getting kilowatts off the system is the cheapest possible power. And what the opponents of solar say is that it's really more expensive than that because you have to have 2 power plans, one for the day and one for the night. And when you have one for the day, yes, you can have a nominal gain on it, but then you got to turn on the big expensive one and burn natural gas at night. And that's the argument. Well, it just says we need more storage. So right now, storage and utility space is going through the roof. The best storage is if everybody at their load has storage. Then I don't have to have some giant battery going into transformers and then putting out power in the neighborhoods. The guy out there can, in effect, reduce his load. If you think about it, you can reduce his load. And that's why batteries are happening now, and it's a big deal. Now what I just said, I actually saw in Oshkosh, and I was trying to sell a battery at the dining room table, kitchen table. We don't have dining rooms in Wisconsin, only kitchens. So I gave them the thing, and the guy looked at me, kind of frowned and said, Wisconsin Power and Electric, their cost is $0.12 a kilowatt hour and they only go off for a couple of hours every year. Why do I need a battery? So that's one of the reasons we haven't sold as many batteries as I would like, as we're deployed in those states, Midwest. Blue Raven, now all of a sudden, this doubles our sales force in all the states where my argument about saving power for nighttime are absolutely valid and are going to get better as time goes on.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

The next question we have, while appreciating the opportunity in the market to acquire attractive assets currently, can you speak to how you think about the balance between acquisitions and bolstering the balance sheet and the potential need to raise capital?

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

I try to make things straightforward, but I put a lot of thought into them. Unlike my early training, I believe that while we aren't ready for a mission statement, we should focus on consistently profitable growth. I'm committed to reporting profits every quarter, rather than just aiming for big revenue jumps. I'm looking for acquisitions that are reasonably priced. For instance, I can pay more than $0.45 times sales but need to be mindful of diluting our price-to-sales ratio, which is a key part of my plan. I also seek teams that will complement our existing workforce. At Cypress, I observed that cultural misalignment is often the reason mergers fail, so culture is a priority for me. As our stock price increases, I can afford to pay more while still adhering to my budget, which is beneficial. Regarding work capacity, if I were to receive $1 billion in orders right now, we'd only be able to manage a fraction of that. We've typically acquired one company a year, and while there may be periods of intense activity, integration takes time. Badri Kothandaraman, who has successfully acquired five companies, has raised our acquisition strategy’s effectiveness. I believe we can realistically target one or two acquisitions each year without further diluting our price-to-sales ratio. I will use stock options for payment and raise funds when the stock is favorable, ensuring minimal dilution. It's important to note that my salary at SunPower is currently zero because I want to protect our profits. With 30 million shares, my income is entirely tied to the company's success; I only bill for travel expenses when the stock performs well. I am fully committed to my role as a shareholder.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

Thank you. I do want to point out that we are at time, but we do have a few more questions in the queue.

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

I'm here. We're in the Middle East, by the way. They have a little studio they lend to us for free. So we're here. Now, go ahead.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

Okay. We have a follow-up question from Gus Richard from Northland Capital. How many of the Sunder sales are being converted into sales at this point into EPC?

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

The question is how many of Sunder orders are being converted into EPC revenue? Okay, that I will report this quarter. The answer is very little because it's going to take me one quarter to fill the pipeline. What our plan is, in the fourth quarter of this year, if we manage to capture half of the orders from Sunder, and that's pretty aggressive, we will then get $20 million per quarter of sales revenue from Sunder just for their orders, and $20 more million of install revenue from internal. And right now, this quarter, we get only the sales part of it.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

Our next question is, as energy demand accelerates due to data center growth, energy pricing will continue to increase, making solar more attractive. How does the energy price trajectory play into your long-term vision for growth?

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

I recently reviewed a startup and was impressed by our country's ingenuity. Despite the challenges we face, we are capable of amazing things. I had a past experience with PG&E that nearly cost my company millions due to a power outage. Eventually, I managed to get a meeting with them, and I expressed my interest in touring the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Plant with an engineer. The experience was incredible, and I learned about the plant's significant energy output, which connects to Helms, where energy is stored. Nuclear plants require a long ramp-up time and run continuously, so it’s essential to manage energy storage effectively. I then considered the Helms facility, which uses two lakes separated by a distance with a dam buried in granite, functioning like a vast battery. At night, water travels down to turn turbines, and during the day, this process is reversed to pump the water back, optimizing energy use. I recently assessed a business plan for an AI center that utilizes existing technology for energy storage at a lower cost than conventional batteries. Their approach involves boring tunnels deep underground to create a network for storing and pumping water, eliminating the need for expensive transmission lines. This innovative solution could significantly address energy concerns. Despite the pessimism often expressed by politicians, I believe these challenges will be resolved, leading to a successful data center. Furthermore, I predict that our power requirements for AI development will decrease as more efficient technologies are developed, much like the transition from vacuum tubes to transistors in computing. I believe that with continued innovation, the energy consumption associated with AI will decline as startups work on making AI functionality more power-efficient.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

Our last question. In the last earnings call, T.J. mentioned that he may not still be serving as CEO in a year's time. Is this still expected? And can anything be shared about preparations for this transition or the succession planning process?

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

I didn't plan to take on this role; I was essentially drafted into it. I liken it to finding a baby on your doorstep in the rain—you take it in. I'm enjoying it, despite some frustrations, and I'm not rushing to leave. I've genuinely been working to find a replacement, but I'm not going to set a specific exit goal. I’ve made three attempts to find someone, but it’s a challenging job due to the semiconductor focus, and the environment is quite different now compared to the past. The younger candidates come in, and I introduce them to our administrative team, but the budget allows for potentially only one hire in the future. It's a significant challenge to scale the company efficiently. I’m currently 0 for 3 in finding the right person, but I'm in discussions with another candidate. It’s a difficult position because finding the right match is crucial. If I bring in the wrong person and things go poorly, I don’t want to be in a position where I have to place blame. My main goal is to ensure the company succeeds.

Sioban Hickie, VP of IR

Thank you for being here and for your guidance. This will conclude our Q&A session, and I will now turn it over to Dr. Rodgers for closing remarks.

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

I've talked a lot today, so I don't have much left to add. Our mission seems straightforward, but as Winston Churchill once said, "Please pardon the long letter. I didn't have the time to write a short one." This relates to our mission statement, which I haven't shared here as it might detract from the solid meaning behind it. The REV25 mission used to be lengthy, but we condensed part of it into an advertisement during our last fundraising effort, which helped us acquire Sunder. This is real, and I genuinely mean it. We are committed to making it happen, and I feel like we are moving closer to that vision each week. Dan, you've been on this journey with me for a long time, and I could use your help because I'm facing some challenges with sales.

Dan Myers, EVP of Sales

Yes, since '93. It's a long time. I think there's 2 things I'd like to leave with on this. First off, the acquisition of this particular company Sunder is positively transformational for our bookings, positively. And you're going to be seeing top line numbers from us as a result of this booking transformation throughout 2026 and 2027. We're not even talking about possible other upsides that can occur above and beyond the Sunder acquisition, including tailwinds from the industry. Right now, there's a lot of consternation about the removal of the ITC tax credit and the effect that has on what we call cash or loan bookings, and that will be an impact. It's not going to materially impact SunPower because of the Sunder acquisition. If in the future, energy prices increase or some other factor occurs from a market point of view, it causes the loan part of the program to increase; we'll enjoy that as well. So I think this is a pivotal point for the company. We've made a positive move in bookings that's going to allow us to have strong revenue growth, independent of outside activity. And as outside external activity starts to improve in the 2026- and 2027-time frame, you'll see even stronger growth for us.

Thurman Rodgers, Chairman and CEO

Thank you. We appreciate listening to my long-winded dissertation.