Earnings Call Transcript - ZD Q4 2025

Operator, Operator

Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Ziff Davis Fourth Quarter and Year-End 2025 Earnings Conference Call. My name is Tom, and I will be the operator assisting you today. On this call will be Vivek Shah, CEO of Ziff Davis, and Bret Richter, Chief Financial Officer of Ziff Davis. I will now turn the call over to Bret Richter, Chief Financial Officer of Ziff Davis. Thank you. You may begin.

Bret Richter, Chief Financial Officer

Thank you. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Ziff Davis Investor Conference Call for Q4 and fiscal year 2025. As the operator mentioned, I am Bret Richter, Chief Financial Officer of Ziff Davis, and I am joined by our Chief Executive Officer, Vivek Shah. A presentation is available for today's call. A copy of this presentation and our earnings release is available on our website, www.ziffdavis.com. You can also access the webcast from this site. When you launch the webcast, there is a button on the viewer on the right-hand side, which will allow you to expand the slides. After completing the presentation, we'll be conducting a Q&A. The operator will provide instructions regarding the procedures for asking questions. In addition, you can e-mail questions to investor@ziffdavis.com. Before we begin our prepared remarks, allow me to read the safe harbor language. As you know, this call and the webcast will include forward-looking statements. Such statements may involve risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from the anticipated results. Some of those risks and uncertainties include, but are not limited to, the risk factors that we have disclosed in our SEC filings, including our 10-K filings, recent 10-Q filings, various proxy statements and 8-K filings, as well as additional risks and uncertainties that we have included as part of the slideshow for this webcast. We refer you to discussions in those documents regarding safe harbor language and forward-looking statements. In addition, following our business outlook slides are our supplemental materials, including reconciliation statements for non-GAAP measures to their nearest GAAP equivalent. Now let me turn the call over to Vivek for his remarks.

Vivek Shah, Chief Executive Officer

Thank you, Bret, and good morning, everyone. For the full year 2025, Ziff Davis grew revenues 3.5%, adjusted EBITDA grew slightly, and the company generated almost $290 million in free cash flow. Given the headwinds that some of our businesses experienced, we're glad to have produced a year of growth, however modest. We deployed $174 million, about 60% of our free cash flow in share repurchases throughout the year as we continue to view our own stock as a highly attractive investment. In the fourth quarter, we experienced a 1.5% drop in revenues and a 5% decline in adjusted EBITDA due to an 18% decline in our Tech & Shopping segment, offset by growth of over 6% in our four other segments. Tech & Shopping's revenues declined largely due to a drop in web search traffic, which had a meaningful impact on our affiliate commerce revenues. As a reminder, we earn affiliate commissions when a user clicks from one of our sites to a partner merchant site and makes a purchase. The highest quality referral traffic for an affiliate commerce business comes from search engines, which are generating lower referrals for us. We believe we can contain the damage through alternative sources of engagement over time as well as growing our video advertising and licensing businesses. In fact, the CNET Group saw video and social views grow 100% in Q4 and over 80% for the full year 2025 to 1 billion views. Gaming & Entertainment revenues grew 1.5% in the fourth quarter, consistent with its full year growth rate. Humble Bundle Storefront had its best revenue quarter in 5 years. Humble Bundle achieved a huge milestone in Q4, celebrating its 15-year anniversary and over $275 million raised for charity to date. IGN Entertainment social growth and engagement continued in Q4 with Facebook views up 22% to 300 million and views on X up 19% to 45 million. IGN Store, which sells collectibles and gaming-related products, saw its total sales triple. Between the store and Humble Bundle, our direct-to-consumer revenues reached almost $90 million in 2025. The Health & Wellness segment finished a year of record revenue and adjusted EBITDA with a strong Q4, growing year-over-year revenues 8.6%. Our AI-powered data activation tool, Halo, has now become a standard part of all of our pharma RFPs. Halo audience insights are used to inform campaign design to better engage target audiences, which leads to improved campaign performance. And it's all accomplished in a privacy-safe way. Our Consumer Health business grew due to increased ad spend from core pharma clients, including new GLP-1 campaigns and growth in subscriptions for our Lose It! weight loss app. We believe that our Lose It! business is benefiting from the rapid market penetration of GLP-1 prescriptions as it's seen as an adjunct therapy to promote healthy eating. Our Professional business also had a strong quarter, driven by growth in the prime continuing medical education business. Connectivity also had a record fourth quarter with revenues up 11%. Speedtest, Downdetector and RootMetrics all experienced strong year-over-year growth in Q4, driven by new customers and increased service adoption by existing customers. Ekahau also produced solid year-over-year growth in Q4 with both enterprise and broadband service providers. Connectivity rolled out a major new product, Speedtest Pulse in the fourth quarter. Pulse is a handheld diagnostic device that empowers field technicians to instantly validate network installations and troubleshoot complex WiFi issues on the first visit, driving operational efficiency and reducing costs. This launch follows the introduction of Speedtest Certified, an independent network verification program that awards a globally recognized badge of excellence to commercial venues, allowing them to monetize their superior connectivity performance as a marketing asset to attract high-value guests and tenants. Both products are expected to contribute to meaningful growth in 2026. Cybersecurity & Martech revenues grew 2.7% in Q4. Growth was driven primarily by the cybersecurity vertical with strong organic performance from consumer VPN and cloud backup. Our momentum in cybersecurity reflects product enhancements, including the addition of threat protection and secure browsing to the IPVanish VPN and the launch of VIPRE integrated e-mail security, which is powered by an AI engine that detects threats such as e-mail compromise. Within the Martech vertical, we see opportunities to help brands profitably acquire and engage customers. Our e-mail business, with its focus on first-party data and e-mail and SMS communication, and Semantic Labs with its focus on efficient customer acquisition from paid traffic, are both working to deliver on this value proposition. As we disclosed in our last earnings call, we have engaged outside advisers to assist us in assessing how certain potential transactions could unlock greater shareholder value. Our evaluation of potential strategic opportunities remains ongoing. As a result of that process, we have decided to defer issuing formal guidance at this time. But I do want to share some high-level thoughts about the outlook for our businesses in 2026. First and foremost, we are intently focused on delivering profitable growth and strong free cash flow generation in 2026, building on 2 consecutive years of great cash generation. While we expect Tech & Shopping revenues to continue the trend of double-digit revenue decline in the first half of 2026, we are forecasting improvements in the second half of the year via a combination of favorable year-over-year comps and benefits from increased off-platform engagement and growth in our licensing activities. For the year, we are expecting Tech & Shopping to be down mid-single digits in revenue. While we work to turn Tech & Shopping around, we're confident in our ability to continue to generate growth in our four other segments. In Gaming & Entertainment, Health & Wellness, and Cybersecurity & Martech, we expect revenue growth of low to mid-single digits for fiscal year 2026, and we anticipate continued double-digit revenue growth at Connectivity. Adjusted EBITDA margins for the Company should continue to hover around 34%. I know there's a great interest in updates regarding AI content licensing, and I wanted to share some observations. We are actively engaged in discussions with key players, and the nature of these dialogues reinforces our confidence in the future revenue opportunities for content licensing. However, we are taking a deliberate principled approach to execution. The market is still defining the framework for appropriate compensation, specifically distinguishing between content used for model training versus content used for retrieval augmented generation or RAG. Our position is consistent. Both use cases require proper licensing. We will not enter into RAG-focused agreements that compromise our rights to fair compensation for foundational training. These are separate use cases with distinct value propositions, and our authoritative content must be valued accordingly in both contexts. We anticipate greater clarity on these fundamental licensing questions following the resolution of our ongoing litigation. Once established, we believe this clarity will unlock licensing opportunities and allow us to move forward with agreements that appropriately reflect the full value of our content across all AI applications. With that, let me hand the call back to Bret.

Bret Richter, Chief Financial Officer

Thank you, Vivek. Let's discuss our financial results. Our earnings release reflects both our GAAP and adjusted financial results for Q4 and fiscal year 2025. My commentary will primarily relate to our Q4 2025 adjusted financial results and the comparison to prior periods. Let's turn to Slide 5 for the summary of our Q4 2025 financial results. Fourth quarter 2025 revenue was $406.7 million as compared with revenue of $412.8 million for the prior year period, a decline of 1.5%. Fourth quarter 2025 adjusted EBITDA was $163.2 million as compared with $171.8 million for the prior year period, reflecting a 5% decline. Our adjusted EBITDA margin for the quarter was 40.1%. We reported fourth quarter adjusted diluted EPS of $2.56. This figure reflects the impact of our active share repurchase program. Turning to Slide 6. Let's review our fiscal year 2025 results. Fiscal year 2025 total revenue increased 3.5% to $1,451.3 billion as compared with the prior year. Fiscal year 2025 adjusted EBITDA increased year-over-year to $495.1 million. Our adjusted EBITDA margin for fiscal year 2025 was 34.1%. Adjusted diluted EPS was $6.63, up slightly as compared with fiscal year 2024. During a number of our recent quarterly calls, we have discussed how our Games Publishing business has negatively impacted our recent financial results. This was true again in the fourth quarter of 2025 as Game Publishing contributed negative net revenue of $2.5 million. However, during the fourth quarter, we took action and sold our Game Publishing business in a transaction that allowed us to recognize book and cash tax savings associated with the loss related to the sale of the business while maintaining the right to certain future payments tied to the performance of the assets under their new management. We did not attribute a value to these payments at closing. As a result, we will recognize them as investment gains if and when we receive them in the future. Our exit from Games Publishing achieved multiple benefits, including the elimination of the distractions associated with this non-core business line, which has also caused significant volatility in the quarterly results of our Tech & Shopping segment. Please note that this exit has no impact on the Humble Bundle Storefront in our Gaming & Entertainment segment. Slide 7 reflects performance summaries for our two primary sources of revenue, advertising and performance marketing and subscription and licensing. Q4 2025 advertising and performance marketing revenue declined 4.4% as compared with the prior year period, while fiscal year 2025 advertising and performance marketing revenue increased 5.9% as compared with 2024. Q4 2025 subscription and licensing revenue increased 4% as compared with the prior year period, and fiscal year 2025 subscription and licensing revenues increased 2.2% year-over-year. Q4 2025 other revenues declined by $600,000 year-over-year, and fiscal year 2025 other revenues declined by $9.2 million. These changes both primarily reflect the impact of the Games Publishing business. Slides 8 through 12 reflect the quarterly and full year financial results for each of our reportable segments, which Vivek has already discussed in some detail. I will note a few additional items. Three of our five segments grew full year revenues in 2025 and four of our five segments grew revenues in the fourth quarter. The now exited Games Publishing business reduced Tech & Shopping segment revenues by $2.5 million in the fourth quarter and by $4.9 million in full year 2025. However, the 2025 year-over-year revenue decline associated with the Games Publishing business was approximately $14 million, reflecting an approximately 1% drag on consolidated revenue growth. This revenue decline also had a high negative flow-through impact on adjusted EBITDA. Please refer to Slide 13 to review our balance sheet. As of the end of 2025, we had $607 million of cash and cash equivalents and $93 million of long-term investments. We also have significant leverage capacity on both a gross and net leverage basis. At year-end, gross leverage was 1.8x trailing 12 months adjusted EBITDA, and our net leverage was 0.5x and 0.3x, including the value of our financial investments. During the fourth quarter, we bought back 1.75 million shares for $60.6 million. In fiscal year 2025, we deployed nearly $174 million to repurchase approximately 4.8 million shares. And during the course of 2025, we reduced the number of shares outstanding by more than 10%. Since January 1, 2026, we repurchased approximately 740,000 additional shares, and we believe that at the current valuation level of Ziff Davis' stock, share repurchases continue to offer an attractive use of our investable capital. Our recent share repurchase activity nearly exhausted our existing stock repurchase authorization. However, this week, our Board of Directors increased our stock repurchase authorization by 10 million shares, bringing the total amount currently available for repurchase to 10.7 million shares. This authorization is valid until February of 2036. Please note that given our current active review of potential value-creating opportunities, there may be periods of time when we are not able to repurchase shares under this authorization. During 2025, we closed a total of seven acquisitions across our businesses, investing a total of $68.7 million net of cash received to support our M&A program. We anticipate we will continue to be an active and disciplined acquirer in 2026 as opportunities arise to add capabilities to our businesses in an accretive manner. Looking ahead to the balance of 2026, we are intently focused on delivering profitable growth, robust adjusted EBITDA margins, and strong free cash flow generation. As Vivek discussed, due to our current review process, we are not providing formal full-year 2026 guidance at the present time. However, I'd like to offer some insight related to our expectations for the first quarter of 2026. We expect first quarter 2026 consolidated year-over-year revenue growth to be relatively flat or slightly negative, as the continued headwinds in the affiliate commerce revenues in our Tech & Shopping division that Vivek noted earlier are expected to largely offset the growth in the balance of our businesses. Given seasonality, our Q1 adjusted EBITDA margins are typically lower than our fiscal year margins, and Q1 2026 margins are expected to be about 3 points lower year-over-year, primarily reflecting an anticipated year-over-year decline in Tech & Shopping revenue, a lower margin revenue mix at Health & Wellness, and the continued investment in growth at Connectivity. However, Q1 adjusted diluted EPS will benefit from a year-over-year drop in our shares outstanding due to our active buyback program. Our supplemental materials include reconciliation statements for our non-GAAP measures to their nearest GAAP equivalents. Please see Slide 25, which includes a reconciliation of free cash flow to net cash provided by operating activities. Our businesses continue to produce robust free cash flow. 2025 free cash flow was $287.9 million, up $4.2 million as compared with 2024. Q4 2025 free cash flow of $157.8 million was up significantly from $131.1 million in Q4 2024. And fiscal year 2025 free cash flow reflects 58.1% of our 2025 fiscal year adjusted EBITDA of $495.1 million. Stepping back a bit, Ziff Davis has made considerable financial progress over the last few years despite a challenging operating environment. Since the end of 2022, the first full year after the Consensus spin-off, we have grown free cash flow by 25%, reduced our gross debt levels by nearly 14%, and lowered our year-end shares outstanding by more than 18%. During this time, we also deployed more than $300 million for 13 acquisitions, adding capabilities across all of our operating segments. And as Vivek noted earlier, we are actively working to pursue opportunities that we believe offer strong prospects to realize additional shareholder value. Although there is no assurance of any future transactions, we continue to believe that our current trading levels do not fully appreciate the intrinsic value of our businesses. We will seek to provide timely updates as appropriate. With that, I will now ask the operator to rejoin us to host our Q&A.

Operator, Operator

And your first question this morning is coming from Rishi Jaluria from RBC.

Rishi Jaluria, Analyst

Maybe just one for me to keep it. But Vivek, I wanted to expand a little bit on some of the AI search tailwinds that you talked about on Tech & Shopping. Maybe can you expand a little bit in terms of how that's progressed? This is obviously a trend we've been discussing for a while. Some of the investments that you can make to maybe capitalize on the AI search opportunity and take that kind of segment back to a better growth trajectory. And then if we think about AI search throughout the rest of your businesses, are there other parts that have proven to maybe be a little bit more resilient, whether it's health care or gaming or whatever? Maybe any color you could give as it pertains to that would be helpful.

Vivek Shah, Chief Executive Officer

Thanks, Rishi, for the question. And so yes, look, what I would say is generally speaking, a lot of traffic is fungible, meaning that lost search traffic can be and has been made up with other sources of engagement: apps, social traffic, video, programmatic traffic, and email. So the degree to which in any of our segments, in the Gaming & Entertainment and Health & Wellness segments in particular, we're able to offset search traffic declines. Where that has become really hard is within Tech & Shopping because the one type of traffic that really is hard to replace is high-intent consumers who arrive via search looking for a product or a service and then clicking through to make a purchase. That's the affiliate commerce and affiliate commission business. And so that particular traffic is harder to replace, though I'll talk about things that we're doing to offset. But that is harder to replace and is very much concentrated in our Tech & Shopping segment. In fact, just to dimensionalize it a little bit. So we did in 2025, roughly $90 million in affiliate commerce commissions related to organic traffic. That was down about $25 million year-over-year, and half of that $25 million was in Q4. So it gives you a sense of kind of the impact and what's going on within Tech & Shopping. From an offset point of view, and as I said, look, I think this is something that will start to materialize in the second half of this year: app traffic, browser extension traffic, and then other forms of monetization outside of affiliate commerce around video, licensing, events, and broader display. So a variety of things that mix. But the high level is where we're seeing search challenges show up, we're really seeing it within this Tech & Shopping segment.

Operator, Operator

Your next question is coming from Ross Sandler from Barclays.

Ross Sandler, Analyst

Yes, that was very informative regarding the $90 million, which represents about 25% of that segment's revenue in 2025. Can you discuss what percentage of traffic this involves and clarify your guidance? It appears that the decline in SEO traffic is at its peak now, and by the second half of 2026, it should become less of a challenge. Is that the correct interpretation? Also, concerning the 300 basis points of margin contraction in the first quarter, how should we view this in light of the decrease in high-margin SEO-related traffic? What is your outlook on maintaining your cost structure and margins moving forward?

Vivek Shah, Chief Executive Officer

Thank you, Ross. I will address your first question and then have Bret provide insight on the second. Looking at the Tech & Shopping segment, it faced challenges in Q4 and is expected to continue doing so in 2026. However, it’s important to note that the other four segments experienced solid growth in Q4 of 2025 and we anticipate this growth will continue into 2026. The affiliate commerce aspect is one of three key challenges in this business, which I’d like to briefly discuss along with the other two. We have the B2B business within Tech & Shopping. As you may remember, our strategy in 2025 aimed to reduce revenue at a pace slower than our expense reductions. We achieved this, with B2B revenues down $11 million year-over-year, but EBITDA increased by nearly $6 million. This approach of resizing the business by eliminating certain products and services has proven effective, although it has resulted in a revenue decline. The final challenge is from the Game Publishing business, which has been sold off, representing a year-over-year decline of about $14 million. As we consider 2026 in comparison to 2025, addressing these factors will serve us well. Additionally, we believe that the difficulties in affiliate commerce within Tech & Shopping will begin to ease in the second half of the year, aided by improved comparisons and new initiatives, such as video monetization, licensing, and enhancing traffic on both the RetailMeNot app and browser extension. With these efforts combined, the overall challenges facing Tech & Shopping are projected to lead to a low single-digit decline for the year, despite the ongoing overall decline.

Bret Richter, Chief Financial Officer

On margins, I would suggest adopting a broader perspective for a moment. Looking back over the past several years, we've managed to sustain our margins despite various challenges in the business. This has been a conscious effort across the company as we adapt to changing business dynamics. As Vivek mentioned, within Tech & Shopping, we've demonstrated our ability to manage this in B2B, which has been a consistent source of revenue pressure for years. We've taken steps to maintain and produce margins while addressing issues with areas like Humble Games. In the first quarter, our focus is primarily on the impacts of revenue softness and some changes in business mix. For fiscal year '26, as Vivek noted, we see the year as having a first half and second half dynamic. If things progress as expected, we believe we'll achieve our goals.

Operator, Operator

And your next question is coming from Shyam Patil.

Shyam Patil, Analyst

I had one on Tech & Shopping and one on M&A. Just on Tech & Shopping, Vivek, I know you guys have talked about there being a lot of moving parts in that business for this year. But how do you think about kind of what's the right growth rate or growth range for that business going forward, not just in '26, but just from a high-level perspective, what kind of growth rate do you think that business should have margin profile as well? And then on M&A, where do you see opportunities this year for M&A? Just kind of curious which segments, which pockets?

Vivek Shah, Chief Executive Officer

Yes, great question, Shyam. I'll begin with the long-term outlook for Tech & Shopping. I don't see it being significantly different from our other Digital Media segments, mainly Gaming & Entertainment and Health & Wellness. I anticipate it will show mid-single-digit growth. However, we need to navigate through the current challenges in the affiliate commerce business, which we developed from the ground up after acquiring the relevant assets. We successfully established a new monetization method during that initial acquisition, and I'm confident that we will discover new monetization strategies for these brands. When we refer to Tech & Shopping, we mean established brands like CNET Group and RetailMeNot Group, which are leaders in their areas. Regarding M&A, we believe the prevailing fears in digital media present us with a unique opportunity to actively pursue acquisitions in this market. The valuations are attractive, especially compared to our own as a well-established, diversified entity. It's clear that companies without our scale will likely trade at lower valuations. The market concerns seem exaggerated. While there are certainly challenges that we're facing, we've demonstrated resilience and have a solid track record in business transformation and managing high-quality brands. Our M&A focus will specifically be on acquiring high-quality brands in valuable categories. We have the financial resources and strong cash flow generation, allowing us to pursue appealing opportunities. I believe we can effectively focus on M&A opportunities while also engaging in the strategic review process to enhance shareholder value.

Operator, Operator

Your next question is coming from Danny Pfeiffer from JPMorgan.

Danny Pfeiffer, Analyst

For the first, as you have discussions with outside advisers on the sale of businesses, can you provide any color on what divisions prospective buyers have been looking at the most? And then for the second, putting the AI headwinds aside, can you provide us with an update on the broader trends you're seeing in the ad market today?

Vivek Shah, Chief Executive Officer

Yes, we wish we could share more. As mentioned in our prepared remarks, this is an active process, and we will provide updates as soon as we can. Right now, that's all I can say. Regarding the ad market, I often emphasize that it's not one market but three distinct segments. In the Gaming & Entertainment sector, we saw approximately 5% ad revenue growth last year, and I anticipate that trend will continue into 2026. The Health & Wellness sector experienced strong double-digit advertising growth in 2025, but I expect that to moderate to the mid-single-digit range, especially since last year included acquisitions that boosted revenue growth. Therefore, the organic growth should be mid-single digits. Both Gaming & Entertainment and Health & Wellness, primarily in pharma, are performing well, and we are content with that. However, the Tech & Shopping experience warrants a closer look, particularly the distinction between affiliate commerce and non-affiliate commerce. I feel optimistic about the non-affiliate commerce and the non-B2B aspects. The affiliate commerce segment, on the other hand, will require us to navigate through a few quarters of challenges before seeing improvement.

Operator, Operator

Your next question is coming from Robert Coolbrith from Evercore ISI.

Robert Coolbrith, Analyst

Can you provide more details about both the traffic and the potential risks in Health & Wellness from search in general, as well as address the concerns in the market regarding AI-based competition in the clinician sector? Additionally, regarding mergers and acquisitions, considering the uncertainty around AI and the potential benefits of AI licensing, do you believe this might stall the market, or can you and potential partners navigate through this situation?

Vivek Shah, Chief Executive Officer

Great questions, Rob. So with respect to the search dynamics within Health & Wellness, that's not an area that I'm really concerned. Much of the inventory within that segment is not search-based. So we have our partnership, our hospital ad network, Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic, and hopefully soon adding some more to that network. We do these custom condition centers, which really don't rely on search engine traffic. We have our direct-to-provider business, which is largely email and other forms of physician engagement. So with respect to H&W, Health & Wellness, I'm not concerned about whatever the search dynamics are. And so what I would say is that it's more of a pharma commercialization business where we work with pharma to commercialize their drugs and to drive patient adherence as well as helping influence doctors' understandings of the prescription opportunities that are available to them. I think with respect to your question on AI and M&A, look, I think that deals can be done, and I understand your point, which is some folks may be holding out just given that there could be a potential windfall on the AI licensing front and so may not be willing to transact right now. And I think it's a balance. Look, that's certainly a question that's out there that until we really understand what the revenue framework and potential is around licensed content for LLMs, you may have certain owners of content assets skittish about transacting. That's certainly out there. On the other hand, I think there are folks who just sit there and say, look, it's a difficult market; it might be time for them to concede or to capitulate; or they find it difficult to sort of bridge where they are to where they want to go, and that will be an opportunity for us. So look, I think it depends. I don't think there's one answer. That's certainly come up because people view it as "a free option" on AI licensing revenues in the future, but we'll see. And look, I think more broadly, I do think that there aren't as many buyers positioned the way we are positioned in terms of balance sheet capabilities, skill set, platforms, and frankly, interest in these assets.

Robert Coolbrith, Analyst

Got it. And just if we could go back to the growing AI footprint or the footprint of AI tools on the clinician side. Are you seeing any impact there, or no real impact?

Vivek Shah, Chief Executive Officer

It's a good question. I mean, I certainly believe that physicians, like pretty much everyone else, are using these AI tools in their day-to-day. And look, I think that obviously is something that will present, I imagine, marketing opportunities, et cetera. And so look, yes, look, I think that any and all tools that attract physician attention are valuable tools. And so we think we have valuable news, information, and continuing medical education. The advantage of continuing medical education is providers need to get their CME credits. So we feel pretty good about a physician engagement platform that is tied to the need to get CME credits.

Bret Richter, Chief Financial Officer

Thanks, Tom, and thanks, everyone, for joining us today. We appreciate your ongoing investment and time, and we look forward to speaking with you in the next couple of months and in our upcoming Q1 earnings call.

Operator, Operator

Thank you. This does conclude today's conference call. You can disconnect your phone lines at this time, and have a wonderful day. Thank you once again for your participation.