Earnings Call Transcript - VBNK Q4 2023

Operator, Operator

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to VersaBank's Fourth Quarter and Year End Fiscal 2023 Financial Results Conference Call. This morning, VersaBank issued a news release reporting its financial results for the fourth quarter and fiscal year ended October 31, 2023. The news release along with the bank's financial statements, MD&A, and supplemental financial information are available on the bank's website in the Investor Relations section, as well as on the SEDAR+ and EDGAR. Please note that in addition to the telephone dial-in, VersaBank is webcasting this morning's conference call. The webcast is listen-only. If you are listening through the webcast but wish to ask a question in the Q&A session following Mr. Taylor's presentation, please dial into the conference line, the details of which are included in this morning's news release and on the bank's website. For those participating in today's call by telephone, the accompanying slide presentation is available on the bank's website. Also, today's call will be archived for replay, both by telephone and via the Internet, beginning approximately 1 hour following completion of the call. Details on how to access the replays are available in this morning's news release. I would like to remind our listeners that the statements about future events made on this call are forward-looking in nature and are based on certain assumptions and analysis made by VersaBank management. Actual results could differ materially from our expectations due to various material risks and uncertainties associated with VersaBank's businesses. Please refer to VersaBank's forward-looking statement advisory in today's presentation. I would now like to turn the call over to David Taylor, President and Chief Executive Officer of VersaBank. Please go ahead, Mr. Taylor.

David Taylor, President and CEO

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us for today's call. With me is Shawn Clarke, our Chief Financial Officer. Before I begin, I'd like to remind you that our financial results are reported and will be discussed in this call in our reporting currency of Canadian dollars. For those interested, we provide U.S. dollar translations for most of our financial numbers in our standard investor presentation, which will be updated and available on our website shortly. Now, for the results. Another record quarter capped off another record year for our bank as we realized the significant and increasing operating leverage in our branchless, business-to-business, partner-based digital banking model with the continued growth in our loan portfolio. 94% year-over-year growth in net income was more than triple that of our healthy 29% growth in our loan portfolio. And that drove an 86% increase in average return on common equity to nearly 14%. Looking more closely at our fourth quarter performance, our results once again show the predictability and momentum of our business. Those of you that have followed VersaBank for some time will have heard me say that the $4 billion mark for total assets was the point in which we begin to see the operating leverage in our digital banking model. That can clearly be seen in Q4 numbers. With total assets crossing the $4 billion mark during Q4, ending the quarter and the year at $4.2 billion, we are seeing the outsized positive impact on efficiency, profitability, and our return on equity. Continued steady growth in our loan portfolio, due primarily to the continued strength of our Point-of-Sale receivable purchase program, drove very healthy sequential revenue growth of 9%, which contributed to 20% growth year-over-year. We achieved this growth while holding non-interest expenses flat. In reality, it was down a bit, which drove our digital banking efficiency ratio to 45% from 51%. As I noted last quarter, this level of efficiency already leads the vast majority of North American banks. Fourth quarter return on common equity saw a big jump, up to 13.58%, up 243 basis points sequentially and 626 basis points year-over-year. This was always my vision for a branchless, business-to-business, partner-based digital bank. Our ability to grow revenue while holding non-interest expenses is the engine that drives and will increasingly continue to drive earnings growth, return on equity, and value for our shareholders. Importantly, we are really just beginning to realize the true efficiencies of our model. Our highlights for fiscal 2023 year very much mirror those for the fourth quarter. Our digital banking efficiency ratio for 2023 improved to 43% from 55%, as we grew revenue by 31% while holding non-interest expenses to just a 1% increase. And that, with the benefit of solid profitable growth from our cybersecurity subsidiary, translated into an 86% increase in net income and a 99% increase in earnings per share. Return on common equity for the year improved substantially to 11.75% from 6.61%. The vast majority of our 2023 growth was driven by the continued solid performance of our Canadian Point-of-Sale Receivable Purchase Program. We continue to expect solid growth for the foreseeable future. We're also seeing continued incremental growth from the limited U.S. launch of our Receivable Purchase Program. While still off a small base, this growth is indicative of the uniqueness and attractiveness of this offering. The real opportunity in the U.S., however, remains the broad national rollout of our solution in what remains an underserved market. It will supercharge our expected growth. We continue to advance the approval process for our proposed acquisition of U.S.-based Stearns Bank Holdingford, which will provide the U.S. license to enable us to undertake this broad rollout. We understand and respect the protracted nature of the process and remain encouraged by our interactions with the regulators to date. Should we receive the approval we are seeking, we know that it will be well worth the wait. I'd now like to turn the call over to Shawn to review our financial results in detail. Shawn?

Shawn Clarke, CFO

Thank you, David, and good morning, everyone. Before I begin, I will remind you that our full financial statements and MD&A for the fourth quarter and the full year are available on our website under the Investors section as well as on SEDAR and EDGAR. As David mentioned, all of the following numbers are reported in Canadian dollars as per our financial statements unless otherwise noted. Starting with the balance sheet. Total assets at the end of the fourth quarter of fiscal 2023 grew to a new high of just over $4.2 billion. It was up 29% from $3.3 billion at the end of Q4 of last year and up 6% sequentially from $4 billion at the end of Q3 of this year. Cash and securities at the end of Q4 were $230 million or 7% of total assets, which is unchanged from both Q4 last year and Q3 of this year. Our total loan portfolio at the end of the fourth quarter expanded to another record balance of $3.85 billion, an increase of 29% year-over-year and 5% sequentially. Book value per share increased 13% year-over-year and 3% sequentially to a record $14. These increases were the result of higher retained earnings as well as fewer shares outstanding due to our share repurchase program, offset partially by dividends paid. Our CET ratio at the end of the quarter was 11.33%, down from 12% at the end of Q4 last year and up from 11.15% from Q3 of this year. Our leverage ratio is 8.30%, down from 9.84% at the end of Q4 last year and down from 8.53% at the end of Q3 of this year. Both our CET1 and leverage ratios remain well above our internal targets. Turning to the income statement. Total consolidated revenue for the quarter increased 20% year-over-year and 9% sequentially to another record of $29.2 million. The increase was driven primarily by higher net interest income from our digital banking operations, primarily due to the strong growth of our loan portfolio. Consolidated non-interest expense was $12.4 million for the quarter, down from $13.8 million for Q4 of last year and down from $12.9 million for Q3 of this year. The year-over-year decrease is a function of lower salary and benefits expenses as well as lower costs incurred in the current quarter attributable to the regulatory process associated with the VersaBank's proposed acquisition of a U.S. financial institution. The sequential decrease is due primarily to certain costs specific to Q3 that were not repeated in Q4. Consolidated net income for Q4 increased 94% year-over-year and 25% sequentially to $12.5 million. Consolidated earnings per share for Q4 increased 104% year-over-year and 24% sequentially to another record $0.47, benefiting in part from a lower number of shares outstanding due to our share repurchase program. During the 2023 fiscal year, we purchased and canceled over 1.3 million common shares, bringing the total number of shares purchased as of the end of fiscal 2023 to just over 1.5 million. Our Q4 profitability continued to contribute to by far the best year in the history of the bank, with fiscal 2023 net income increasing 86% compared to 2022 to $42.2 million, while EPS increased 99% to $1.57. The primary driver of growth in our loan portfolio is once again our Point-of-Sale financing business, which increased 30% year-over-year and 4% sequentially to $2.9 billion. I should note here that the completion of a planned portfolio sale early in the quarter had the effect of reducing quarter-over-quarter U.S. financing portfolio growth by approximately 2%. Our Point-of-Sale portfolio represented 75% of our total loan portfolio at the end of Q4, down just slightly from Q3 of this year. Our commercial real estate portfolio expanded 24% year-over-year and 10% sequentially to $898 million at the end of Q4. This increase was due primarily to increased loan origination activity in select markets that are aligned with the bank's conservative loan origination strategy in this space. I should note here that our commercial portfolio is 90% composed of loans and mortgages, which are financing residential properties, predominantly multiunit in nature, and we continue to have very little exposure to commercial use properties. Turning to the income statement for our digital banking operations. Net interest margin on loans, that is excluding cash and securities, was 2.69%. That was 34 basis points or 11% lower on a year-over-year basis but unchanged sequentially. Net interest margin overall, including the impact of cash, securities, and other assets, decreased 27 basis points year-over-year, or 10%, and decreased 3 basis points, or 1%, sequentially to 2.54%. Q4 net interest margin was again dampened by a spike in market rates for term deposits relative to Government of Canada rates during the quarter. And I will note that despite some volatility in the term deposit rates over the course of the year, net interest margin was essentially in line with that of last year. Non-interest expenses for digital banking for Q4 were $11.4 million, down slightly from $11.5 million for Q4 last year and up from $10.8 million for Q3 of this year. The sequential increase was a function primarily of higher fees related to inter-company technology and cybersecurity services, which were disproportionately high in Q4 and are expected to return to normalized levels in Q1 of fiscal 2024. Cost of funds for Q4 is 3.86%, up 141 basis points year-over-year and up 24 basis points sequentially. The bulk of the year-over-year increase is a result of the higher interest rate environment, although the increase in our cost of funds since the Bank of Canada began increasing its benchmark rate at the beginning of fiscal 2021 remains significantly below the policy rate increase of 475 basis points. Cost of funds was somewhat elevated in Q4 due to the spike in market rates for term deposits, as previously discussed. Our provision for credit losses, or PCLs, in Q4 remained very low at just 0.02% of average loans compared with a 12-quarter average of 0.00%. Turning now to DRTC. As a reminder, beginning in Q1 this year, revenue for DRTC includes income from digital banking operations associated with the delivery of various technology development services in addition to the contribution from our cybersecurity services business Digital Boundary Group, or DBG. Let me start with DBG standalone results. DBG's revenue for Q4 increased 21% year-over-year and 46% sequentially to $3.4 million, driven by continued growth in service engagements. Gross profit increased 50% year-over-year and 45% sequentially to $2.6 million as DBG continues to realize efficiencies in the business. DBG remained profitable on a standalone basis within DRTC. Total DRTC revenue, including revenue derived from services provided to digital banking operations, increased 108% year-over-year and 83% sequentially to $3.7 million. DRTC's net income of $1.2 million was an improvement over a net loss of $486,000 a year ago and a net loss of $99,000 in Q3 of this year.

David Taylor, President and CEO

Thank you, Shawn. Those of you who read the entirety of our news release this morning will know that with the conclusion of fiscal 2023, we are undertaking a strategic realignment of certain roles within our senior management team to ensure we're prepared to move forward immediately and aggressively should we receive the relevant regulatory approvals to broadly launch our RPP financing solution in the United States. My partner on these calls for the last several years, Shawn Clarke, will move from his current role of CFO to the newly created role of Chief Operating Officer. During his decade-and-a-half with VersaBank, Shawn has made tremendous contributions to our growth and success in a variety of capacities, including roles in corporate development, technology, risk, and of course, finance, including holding the titles of Chief Risk Officer, Senior Vice President, Operations, as well as Chief Operating Officer of the subsidiary of the bank. In addition to his normal course CFO duties over the past years, he has been integral to the development of the business plan and the implementation of the strategy for the RPP in the United States, as well as the U.S. regulatory approval process. As COO, he will help lead our charge into the United States. Taking on the CFO role will be John Asma, who has served as our Treasurer for the past year-and-a-half and who previously served in a variety of senior executive roles with the bank, including Senior Vice President of Treasury, Senior Vice President of Structured Finance and Treasurer, Senior Vice President of Credit and Treasurer. In his recent tenure as Treasurer, John has been instrumental in enhancing our return on treasury balances while further mitigating risk and enhancing liquidity as well as expanding our base of business development. John's financial acumen and discipline will serve the bank well as we increasingly realize the operating leverage of our business. Finally, Chintan Shah, who has been a valuable member of our Treasury team for the last two-and-a-half years, most recently as Assistant Treasurer, will become Treasurer. Chintan has spent the majority of his career in the treasury function and has worked closely with John towards that group's many accomplishments over the past several years. I have the utmost confidence in his ability to take on the bank's treasury role and continue to drive the success of this critical aspect of our business. 2023 was by far the best year in the history of our bank. It is demonstrative of the execution of the plan that I put in place years ago, with the recognition that technology could be used efficiently to address underserved banking markets, leveraging intermediaries to limit costs and mitigate risk and drive outsized returns on common equity and value for our shareholders. It marks a new chapter in the evolution of our growth trajectory. As we look ahead into 2024, we remain comfortable with our highly stable low-cost funding sources, very sticky deposits derived through our wealth management partners, all of which are term deposits, and our low-cost bankruptcy trustee partners. Each has excellent visibility into deposit maturities with very limited risk of unexpected withdrawal. I will note here that we may see some fluctuations in our net interest margin in 2024 based on cost of funds. As Shawn noted earlier, net interest margin and in turn revenue were again this quarter dampened by a period of elevated rates in the term deposit receipt market. It appears to be the function of a continuing uncertainty around the banking sector in North America, which has an impact on smaller banks. Therefore, it may be the case that we'll see more volatility going forward. All other things being equal, we expect interest margins for the year to be in the range of this year's number. The number will depend to some degree on the success of our continuing effort to add low-cost funding sources as well as the low capital requirement opportunities we might pursue that would drive return on equity but dampen net interest margin. Importantly, with the momentum in the efficiency of the business and the fluctuations in interest margin, we will only have a small impact on our profitability. And I will note here that we continue to have by far the largest net interest margin among publicly traded banks in Canada. In terms of insolvency deposits, as expected, recent data shows consumer insolvency is up 26% and business insolvency is up 42% compared to last year. This increased activity should drive the continued expansion of our low-cost deposits and of course will support net interest margin. Should we receive the regulatory approvals that will enable us to broadly roll out the RPP in the United States, we are well prepared to begin the low-cost deposit taking in U.S. dollars to fund that program. Last quarter, I discussed our near-term asset milestones and how we reach those milestones will increasingly benefit from the inherent operating leverage of our business. Having surpassed the $4 billion milestone in the fourth quarter of 2023, we are now focused on our next milestone, $5 billion, and the additional outsized growth and efficiency, profitability, and return on equity that our model will generate. That $5 billion milestone represents 19% growth from the $4.2 billion as at the end of fiscal 2023. As I noted earlier, during 2023, we grew assets by 29%, driven primarily by our Point-of-Sale Receivable Purchase Program business. Accordingly, we expect to achieve this next milestone during 2024 calendar year, based on just the continued growth of our existing business, as always, barring any major unexpected economic shock. We are seeing some signs of potential slowdown in the broader economy due to the current interest rate environment. However, we are seeing resiliency in the sectors in which we participate, hence our confidence in the outlook for next year. Should we receive regulatory approval for our U.S. acquisition and be able to broadly launch our RPP in 2024, that would present potentially significant incremental growth, depending on the timing, that could push us well past the $5 billion milestone. At the same time, we expect only a modest increase in non-interest expenses for 2024, more or less in line with inflation, excluding any costs that could be related to the closing of our acquisition. That, by virtue of the simple straightforward math I described in our last call, translates into a disproportionate improvement in efficiency and expansion on our return on equity. Provisions for credit losses should, of course, remain de minimis, the result of our highly mitigated lending practices, and particularly the holdback model for our Point-of-Sale Receivable Purchase Program for loans and leases. Finally, we are seeing solid momentum in our cybersecurity services subsidiary, which we expect to continue throughout the next year. Our strong reputation for results, along with increased visibility efforts, are driving growth in our client base, while engagement with existing clients expands as they see the unique value we have to offer. As just one example, this year, we began working with a major North American financial institution and quickly became one of their top-tier cybersecurity testing partners. This remains a tremendous opportunity in this rapidly growing market, and we expect continued growth and success going forward. To conclude, 2024 is expected to be a year that takes our efficiency, profitability, and return on equity to even higher levels, further demonstrating the strength and scalability of our business model. We will see more of each revenue dollar drop to the bottom line as we continue to mitigate risk throughout every aspect of our business. This is our recipe for delivering sustainable, long-term shareholder value. With that, I would like to open the call for questions.

Operator, Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question-and-answer session. Our first question comes from David Feaster from Raymond James. Please go ahead.

David Feaster, Analyst

Hi. Good morning, everybody.

David Taylor, President and CEO

Good morning, David.

David Feaster, Analyst

I wanted to begin by discussing the current market trends and growth outlook. It's encouraging to hear about the $5 billion target, especially considering your starting point and the growth you're experiencing, which seems quite achievable. I'm interested to know if this target does not include the Stearns deal, and how you view the growth trajectory and the impact of the U.S. RPP program you've been implementing as part of this strategy.

David Taylor, President and CEO

In Canada, the recently completed quarter would have shown about 6% growth before the sale of that portfolio. We're currently experiencing a steady 6% growth per quarter in Canada, and there's no indication of a slowdown. Many customers are applying for home improvement loans to invest in energy-efficient furnaces and other cost-saving devices. It looks like the Canadian market will achieve around 25% growth, averaging about 6% each quarter. We now have three customers in the United States, and the demand for our product is strong. Even without a U.S. banking license at this time, we anticipate additional growth beyond what we are seeing in Canada. However, we are aware that the global environment is unstable, and as I mentioned earlier, if shocks occur, consumers may reduce their spending and become more cautious. For now, the growth rate in Canada remains around 6% per quarter, with additional growth expected in the United States.

David Feaster, Analyst

Yeah. No, that's great. And again, the U.S. license is kind of icing on the cake above that. But could you maybe talk about the loan sale and kind of the drivers behind that, what you sold, and kind of what drove that sale?

David Taylor, President and CEO

We had a request to repurchase some receivables that were originally sold to us due to internal requirements. The yield on that portfolio was lower compared to the rest of our portfolio, so it made sense for us to increase profitability. It also benefited them since they wanted to pay back the original rates. It was advantageous for both parties, and it's not something we do frequently; it was an unusual situation that arose. We examined the figures and agreed it was a reasonable decision.

David Feaster, Analyst

Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. No, that's great. And one thing, the CRE growth was a little bit higher kind of accelerated in the quarter. And just kind of reading your commentary and listening to you, it sounds like you're a bit more cautious on the CRE space. I'm curious what drove the kind of a higher pace of growth there. And just how you think about credit quality and underwriting at this point given the higher rate environment, kind of where LTV and debt services at these higher rates?

David Taylor, President and CEO

The CRE growth was probably just a result of the accelerated construction during the warmer summer months. So, it would be just a natural result of the construction loans that we'd have in place drawing down more rapidly during the summer. My view on the market is that it's one that deserves a lot of caution going into, and we're emphasizing government-insured construction mortgages out there. In Canada, there's an insurance company called CMHC and they have a wonderful program for ensuring residential construction mortgages, and we're planning in 2024 to take full advantage of that. I don't see much else in 2024 non-insured mortgages. For example, I just assume staying in the comfort of CMHC. In addition, there's much more favorable risk weighting. The assets are risk weighted at zero versus 70%, 100%, 150% on some of the other asset categories. So, it's a very efficient use of capital, and we're still providing financing for our customers who are trying to make up the need for the tremendous need for residential units in Canada. You're probably aware we've had a lot of immigration into Canada. It's a very popular country, but it's created a huge demand for residential units, and our customers, our developers that we've been banking, in my case personally, I'm 46 years, are doing their best to fill that need. And we're thinking that CMHC vehicles is the best way to do that.

David Feaster, Analyst

That makes sense. And maybe switching gears to DRT Cyber, nice to see the uptick in revenues and expense control was really impressive. I know there were some timing issues with last quarter, but I'm just curious how the pipeline is trending. You talked about the major win that you had here in the States, but I'm just curious kind of how the pipeline is at DRT Cyber and just how you think about that business going forward.

David Taylor, President and CEO

The pipeline has grown significantly recently. In November, I reviewed the numbers, and they are much higher compared to last November. Over the past quarter, we've observed a notable rise in the demand for our product. The reasons for this increase are uncertain, but it could be related to concerns about cybersecurity threats. We offer a premium product, especially in penetration testing and application testing. In the last quarter, we experienced a substantial increase, and it appears that this trend is continuing.

David Feaster, Analyst

How do you think about the expansion of that business? I mean, are there any other new products or innovations or just add-on services that you're looking to expand into?

David Taylor, President and CEO

We have developed several products, including RAVEN, our anti-spam software filter that prevents employees and the company from emailing those who have opted out. It also filters incoming spam emails, and we are currently rolling it out. We have promoted our machine learning capability, which acts as an early warning system to detect hacker attempts, alerting customers to unusual activity. While some customers periodically test their systems, it would be beneficial for them to have ongoing oversight. We also have other products that are not being utilized, such as VersaVault, which has great potential in the digital space. We are focusing on our digital assets while we proceed with our bank application, and I anticipate a positive outcome soon. Eventually, DRTC might be better suited as an independent entity with a strong connection to the bank, which could allow products like VersaVault to be reintroduced. Currently, it may not align with a bank's needs, but DRTC could have greater value as a standalone company, enabling the use of more products.

David Feaster, Analyst

Absolutely. Terrific. Well, I appreciate the questions. Thank you.

David Taylor, President and CEO

Well, thank you, David. Look forward to seeing you in sunny Florida on one of these nice days.

David Feaster, Analyst

Absolutely. It's gorgeous out.

David Taylor, President and CEO

Yeah. I'm planning to head down there just before Christmas, so hopefully in the New Year we can catch up.

David Feaster, Analyst

Let's do it. Thank you.

Operator, Operator

Thank you. We have our next question coming from the line of Ian Gillespie. Please go ahead.

Unidentified Analyst, Analyst

Good morning, David, and congratulations on the quarter, the year, and the realignment of management responsibilities, all super initiatives. A couple of questions. One, you referred to the positive interactions with the U.S. regulator. I am curious whether there is extensive back and forth currently, or are they asking for more information, or do they have all the information they need and it's just going through their own particular process?

David Taylor, President and CEO

Well, good question, Ian. And thanks. It was quite a vindication of that model I put together about 30 years ago seeing it finally unfold and start to deliver the numbers it should deliver. With respect to your question, there's very little back and forth between us and the U.S. regulators for the last few months. We feel we've answered all the questions they had about our banking business. There's just been some sort of tidy up in the last while asking about our major shareholder. That's kind of routine for understanding these types of things where we have a U.S. bank holding company. They sort of tidy-up questions of if nothing has changed sort of thing. So, for months now, we have really interacted with the U.S. regulator on anything about the bank.

Unidentified Analyst, Analyst

Presumably, you've kept us up to date so that you would be able to pull that trigger as soon as you do receive the go-ahead. Do you have to, in any way, renegotiate the deal with Stearns Bank just because of the protracted period of time it's taken?

David Taylor, President and CEO

No, there is no requirement for that. Stearns has been collaborating with us for a longer period than we initially anticipated. We are both eager to finalize the deal and looking forward to exploring other transactions together. We have several ideas in development right now. I expect a strong relationship moving forward, and we are all practicing patience. I understand you have experience in government and regulatory matters, and patience is essential in these situations. If a regulator requests additional information, the bank works to provide it as quickly as possible, typically responding by the afternoon.

Unidentified Analyst, Analyst

And presumably, you wouldn't anticipate any problems with OSFI at this end?

David Taylor, President and CEO

I believe that from OSFI's perspective, it enables us as the bank to diversify and grow in a market that is likely very favorable to our products. Over the past year, we have received nothing but positive feedback. OSFI is fulfilling its usual role and inquiring about our progress. Additionally, I can publicly share that I have recently seen positive developments.

Unidentified Analyst, Analyst

And last question, is there currently an approved NCIB, or are you kind of holding off on that until you see what happens?

David Taylor, President and CEO

It’s currently on hold. We submitted the NCIB, but requested OSFI to pause it, as we want to assess our capital situation after closing. This will influence our decision. The numbers we’re seeing are quite significant. I would anticipate that the stock might not remain at three quarters of book value for long. It was a great deal, and we nearly doubled our investment. However, I find it hard to believe that such a bargain will last with the strong numbers we are presenting.

Unidentified Analyst, Analyst

Well, that's great, David. Thank you for that. You're starting to sound more and more like one of those greedy bankers. All I can say is keep up the good work.

David Taylor, President and CEO

Yeah. And I don't apologize for that while I got my banker hat on. But yesterday, we were at the Salvation Army giving some back. Of course, it's Christmas time, and we're doing our part there too.

Unidentified Analyst, Analyst

Very good. Thank you.

David Taylor, President and CEO

Well, I'd like to thank everybody for listening in and for the good questions that I received. And I wish you all a Merry Christmas and happy holidays. Stay safe. Look forward to talking to you at the end of Q1. Hopefully, we'll have more good news to share. And should you have any questions in the meantime, we're just an email away. We're happy to answer questions on the fly too. Again, happy holidays.

Operator, Operator

Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes your conference call for today. We thank you for participating and ask that you please disconnect your lines. Have a lovely day.