ASE Technology Holding Co., Ltd. Q3 FY2023 Earnings Call

Hello, I am Ken Hsiang, the Head of Investor Relations for ASE Technology Holdings. Welcome to our Third Quarter 2023 Earnings Release. Thank you for attending our conference call today. Please refer to our safe harbor notice on Page 2. All participants consent to having their voices and questions broadcast via participation in this event. If participants do not consent, please disconnect at this time. I would like to remind everyone that the presentation that follows may contain forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are subject to a high degree of risk and our actual results may differ materially. For the purposes of this presentation, dollar figures are generally stated in new Taiwan dollars, unless otherwise indicated. As a Taiwan-based company, our financials are presented in accordance with Taiwan IFRS. Results presented using Taiwan IFRS may differ materially from results using other accounting standards, including those presented by our subsidiary using Chinese GAAP. I am joined today by Joseph Tung, our CFO. For today's session, I will be giving the prepared remarks. Joseph will then be available to take your questions during the Q&A session that follows. The overall environment for our businesses during the third quarter was relatively soft from a historical perspective. Devices related to new communications products introduced during the quarter generated a small pickup in demand, but, by and large, the post COVID inventory digestion and sub-optimal demand environment continued. For the third quarter, both our ATM and EMS businesses saw mild seasonal upticks. Our ATM businesses results were on the higher side of our expectations. We believe this was primarily attributable to higher than expected unplanned orders and the soft loading environment. Our customers have become more cautious when booking regular production forecasts on the expectation that there would be more capacity available when needed. We do, to a certain extent, try to apply an unplanned order rate to our outlooks, but for the third quarter unplanned orders were a bit higher than expected. These unplanned orders were sporadic and dispersed and not isolated to any particular product type or market segment. For ATM factories, during the quarter, key equipment utilization rates were still relatively low averaging out in the mid 60s. Our EMS businesses pickup was slightly below our initial expectation. We believe this was due to some loading being pushed out into the fourth quarter. With that, please turn to page three, where you will find our third quarter consolidated results. For the third quarter, we recorded fully diluted EPS of $2 and basic EPS of $2.04. Consolidated net revenues increased 13% sequentially and declined 18% year-over-year. We had a gross profit of 24.9 billion with a gross margin of 16.2%. Our gross margin improved by 0.2 percentage points sequentially and declined by 3.9 percentage points year-over-year. The sequential improvement of margin is principally due to higher ATM business loading in the current quarter, offset in part by a higher EMS revenue mix. The annual decline in gross margin is principally the result of lower loading during the current downturn. Our operating expenses increased by TWD1.2 billion sequentially and declined by 0.8 billion annually. The sequential increase in operating expenses is primarily due to higher profit-sharing expenses and miscellaneous increases such as D&A in factory supplies and others. The year-over-year decline was primarily attributable to lower bonus and profit-sharing expenses across the company. Our operating expense percentage declined by 0.2 percentage points sequentially and increased by 1.2 percentage points year-over-year to 8.8%. The sequential operating expense percentage decrease was primarily related to lower salary and bonus costs relative to revenues generated. The annual operating expense increase is primarily due to a higher mix of ATM business during the quarter. Operating profit was 11.4 billion, up 2 billion sequentially and down 12.3 billion year-over-year. Operating margin was 7.4%, improving 0.5 percentage points sequentially, and declining 5.2 percentage points year-over-year. During the quarter, we had a net non-operating gain of TWD0.8 billion. Our non-operating gain for the quarter primarily consists of net foreign exchange hedging activities, profits from associates and other non-operating income offset by net interest expense of TWD1.2 billion. Tax expense for the quarter was TWD2.9 billion. Net of a one-time capital gain tax of TWD0.7 billion, our effective tax rate was 18.1%. We believe our full year effective tax rate to still be about 21%. Net income for the quarter was TWD8.7 billion, representing an increase of 1.1 billion sequentially, and a decline of 8.8 billion year-over-year. The NT dollar depreciated 2.9% against the US dollar sequentially during the third quarter and 4.5% annually. From a sequential perspective, we estimate the NT dollar depreciation had a 0.8 percentage point positive impact on the company's gross and operating margins. From a year-over-year perspective, we estimate that the depreciating NT dollar had a 1.2 percentage point positive impact on gross and operating margins. As a rule of thumb, for every percent the NT dollar appreciates, we see a corresponding 0.27 percentage point impact on our holding company's gross margin. On the bottom of the page, we provide key P&L line items without the inclusion of PPA-related expenses. Consolidated gross profit excluding PPA expenses would be 25.8 billion with a 16.8% gross margin. Operating profit would be 12.6 billion with an operating margin of 8.2%. Net profit would be 9.9 billion with a net margin of 6.4%. Basic EPS excluding PPA expenses would be TWD2.31. On page four is a graphical presentation of our consolidated financial performance. As you can see here, the current correction appears to have had a stronger impact on our ATM business than our EMS business. Our traditionally strong third quarter ATM revenues are just now near our first quarter 2022 levels. On page five is our ATM P&L. It is worth noting here that the ATM revenue reported contains revenue eliminated at the holding company level related to intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses. For the third quarter 2023, revenues for ATM business were at 3.7 billion, up 7.6 billion from the previous quarter and down 15.1 billion from the same period last year. This represents a 10% improvement sequentially and a 15.3% decline annually. Gross profit for our ATM business was 18.6 billion, up 2.4 billion sequentially and down 10.2 billion year-over-year. Gross profit margin for ATM business was 22.2%, up 1 percentage point sequentially and down 7 percentage points year-over-year. Gross margin was on the higher side of our expectations. The sequential margin improvement is the result of improved scales of efficiency from higher loading, offset in part by slightly higher summer utility consumption and outsourced services, while the annual margin decline is primarily the result of lower loading due to the current downturn. During the third quarter, operating expenses were TWD9.8 billion, up 1 billion sequentially and down 0.4 billion year-over-year. The sequential increase in operating expenses was primarily driven by higher compensation-based expenses and higher R&D related factory supplies. The annual operating expense decline was driven primarily by lower profit-sharing and bonus, offset in part by higher R&D related costs. Our operating expense percentage for the quarter was 11.7%, up 0.2 percentage points sequentially and up 1.4 percentage points annually. Sequential operating expense percentage increased as a result of higher R&D and compensation-related costs. The annual increase was due to lower loading and thus lower operating leverage. During the third quarter, operating profit was 8.8 billion representing an increase of 1.4 billion quarter-over-quarter and a decline of 9.9 billion year-over-year. Operating margin was 10.5%, improving 0.8 percentage points sequentially and declining 8.4 percentage points year-over-year. For foreign exchange, we estimate that the NT to US dollar exchange rate had a positive 1.4 percentage point impact on our ATM sequential margins, and a positive 2.2 percentage point impact on a year-over-year basis. Without the impact of PPA-related depreciation and amortization, ATM gross profit margin would be 23.3% and operating profit margin would be 11.9%. On Page 6, you'll find a graphical representation of our ATM P&L. Revenues and their corresponding scaled efficiency are still ways off from previous 2022 peaks. On Page 7 is our ATM revenue by market segment. You can see here the seasonal pickup of some communications products during the quarter. We also saw a smaller pickup in our computing segment. Our automotive consumer and other market segment declined on a relative and absolute basis. We believe this decline to be out of character for the seasonally strong third quarter. However, it is indicative of the current softness in demand. On Page 8, you will find our ATM revenue by service type. You can see here that we are experiencing a stronger pickup in our advanced packaging services, which includes bumping and flip chip. Our wire bonding and test business saw their relative shares declined during the quarter. It is worth noting that on an absolute dollar basis, both wire bond and test service types increased in revenues. On page nine, you can see the third quarter results of our EMS business and a graphical representation of its market segment allocation. During the quarter, EMS revenues were TWD71 billion, improving 10.6 billion or 18% sequentially and declining 19.7 billion or 22% year-over-year. Sequential revenue increase is primarily attributable to the seasonal nature of our EMS business, while the year-over-year revenue decline is primarily due to the broad-based soft electronics demand environment. Sequentially, our EMS businesses gross margin declined 0.2 percentage points to 9.1%, while our operating margin improved 0.4 percentage points to 3.9%. The operating margin improvements were driven primarily by loading and favorable foreign exchange impacts to raw materials. Our EMS third quarter operating profit was 2.8 billion, up 0.7 billion sequentially and down 2.3 billion annually. For our EMS market segment, our consumer segment picked up seasonally as industrial and automotive segments declined on a relative basis. And while the automotive segment lost relative share, it grew during the quarter by 7% on an absolute dollar basis. From a full-year perspective, we continue to expect our automotive market segment to outperform other segments. On Page 10, you will find key line items from our balance sheet. At the end of the third quarter, we had cash and cash equivalents and current financial assets of TWD71.9 billion. Our total interest-bearing debt was down 32.1 billion to 219.2 billion. Total unused credit lines amounted to TWD347 billion. Our EBITDA for the quarter was 27.8 billion. As mentioned in our previous quarter, our net debt-to-equity this quarter was up as a result of cash usage for annual dividend payment. On Page 11, you will find our equipment capital expenditures. Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the third quarter in US dollars totaled $239 million, of which $121 million were used in packaging operations, $89 million in test operations, $28 million in EMS operations, and $1 million in interconnect material operations and others. Current quarter EBITDA of 0.9 billion US dollars continues significantly to outpace our equipment capital expenditures of $0.2 billion. It is worth noting that with more excitement surrounding AI, our leading-edge advanced packages and our vertically integrated VIPack offerings are getting a lot more attention from our shareholders as well as our customers. At this point, we are expecting incremental customer adoptions of our Fan-Out and interposer-based solutions, along with increasing collaboration with upstream foundry partners on leading-edge advanced packaging. As a result, we will be making incremental investments to support these businesses subject to financially justifiable returns. And while revenues related to these products are relatively small, representing a low-single digit percentage of ATM revenues, we believe we see significant growth opportunities in the coming year. We are in October now and the year is almost done, much of the original wafer banks for ATM business still remain to be addressed. As with many situations during the downturn, our wafer banks situation has become a bit complicated. During the third quarter while some wafer banks were gradually being worked out, the composition of some of those wafer banks appeared to be replenishing instead of just declining. In effect, we saw newer wafers starting to come in and replace older ones. Devices on these older wafers may continue to be sold, perhaps by being re-skewed or by being marked down. And if that is the case, we will provide packaging and testing services for those products. But for us, the focus going forward should be placed on the newer generation of products. And while we are not in a position to predict how long those new products will stay in the channel before they sell through to the end markets, we do believe that the overall environment heading into 2024 appears to be improving. Our customers have been more cautious in their approach towards restocking. Overall demand looks marginally better as consumers finish their post-COVID catch-up spending. Businesses are looking to implement AI to optimize their business operations. Consumers are discovering how new AI technology may help improve their lives. It is an opportunity to target a new generation of products at a new generation of consumer demand. Looking out into the fourth quarter, we've seen many products continuing their seasonal builds. And while we did see a welcome mild seasonal ramp, we have not necessarily seen a rapid recovery for the industry. As an extension to this concept, we believe the seasonal forces of product cycles are still stronger than the recovery we are encountering. As such, we see our fourth quarter revenues to be more indicative of waning seasonal builds than the rising momentum of a full recovery. For our EMS business, the third quarter’s shallower than normal product ramps turn into a longer building season with a peak in the fourth quarter. Product mix and the cessation of foreign exchange benefits will result in a lower quarterly operating margin similar to year-to-date levels. We would like to summarize our outlook for the fourth quarter as follows. For our ATM business, in NT dollar terms, our ATM fourth quarter 2023 revenues should decline low-to-mid-single digits quarter-over-quarter. Our ATM fourth quarter 2023 gross margin should be flattish as compared to third quarter 2023. For our EMS business, in NT dollar terms, our EMS fourth quarter 2023 revenues should increase percentage-wise in the low-teens quarter-over-quarter. Our EMS fourth quarter 2023 operating margin should be similar or slightly higher than our EMS year-to-date 2023 operating margin of 3.3%. That is the conclusion of our prepared remarks. I would like to open the floor to questions.

Now we would like to open the floor for questions. We have a question from Mr. Gokul Hariharan of J.P. Morgan.

Hello. Thank you for the opportunity. My first question is regarding the wafer bank comment, which I found quite interesting. Could you elaborate a bit more? Joseph, in terms of the composition of the wafer bank, are you noticing new wafers coming in for one specific application while the older wafers, which haven't been completely depleted, are being used for other applications? Do you observe any differences in the wafer bank inventory build-up and production based on application? Additionally, to the extent that you have visibility, could you discuss how quickly this wafer bank might be depleted over the next couple of quarters? That's my first question.

I don't think we can predict how quickly or significantly the original wafer bank will be addressed. We are noticing that the original wafer banks are gradually being reduced to a certain level. However, the total wafer bank remains relatively high because some of the older wafers are being replaced by new ones. Currently, it’s mainly new products being launched, particularly in the communication consumer and computing sectors. There is a wide range of new wafers being introduced. Overall, inventory digestion is still in progress and is expected to continue for some time. The positive aspect is that we are observing this inventory being consumed, and the digestion process should be nearing the end of its cycle in the industry.

Thank you. Thanks, Joseph. Looking at the Q4 guidance, we're anticipating a low-to-mid single-digit decrease. There was a noticeable improvement in communication within both the auto and industrial sectors, which started to decline in Q3. Is this trend expected to continue into Q4, where communication remains relatively strong while the decline persists in the auto and industrial sectors? Additionally, any insights on the auto and industrial sectors would be appreciated, especially since they've been robust until recently and now appear to be entering an inventory correction phase. Based on past trends and your experience, do you anticipate that this will continue to be a challenge for most of next year, particularly in the first half?

I think overall situations are stabilizing now and auto remains to be one of the brighter spots, and we are making quite a bit of progress in moving up the auto part of the business. I think last year, we have overall about 7% of our revenue coming from automotive and that ratio has been up to 10% for this year and we believe it will continue to grow. Although we are seeing some level of the growth, the momentum seems to be slowing down a little bit, because there are certain areas where there will be some inventory that needs to be digested. But overall, I think the overall trend is still going fairly healthy. For quarter four, I think it is across the board. I think a lot of the new products are being introduced and we are seeing the seasonal uptick from these new products that are being launched.

Our next question is from Ms. Laura Chen of Citigroup.

Hi, thank you. Can you hear me?

Yes.

Yeah, I thank you for taking my question. My first question is about the substrate advanced packaging expansion. Can you provide us more detail about how big of the capacity you are preparing? And also, in terms of the growth outlook, even though so far it is at a very low single digit of the IC ATM business, I was just wondering your view on the capacity expansion plan and also to growth outlook? That's my first question. Thank you.

Well, instead of giving out numbers for capacity, I think what we can say is we have the sufficient store capacity for generating the revenue that we're generating now and we do see pretty good potential going forward. And we'll be making the necessary investments, provided those are financially justifiable. And most of the CapEx that we're going to put in or the investment that we're going to put in are for debottlenecking the capacity. And at this point, we are confident that we should easily double that part of the revenue next year.

Thank you. My second question is regarding the ATM business, which has seen a slight decline. However, it seems that the gross margin has remained stable. I'm curious about how the technology mix or applications have performed to maintain profitability into Q4, despite the ongoing softness in the market.

A lot of it comes from the product mix we are developing. In the third and fourth quarters, we see that higher-margin products are making up a larger share of our overall revenue. Additionally, pricing remains stable. Given our scale in technology offerings and our level of automation, we have been able to maintain reasonable pricing and keep good control over our costs, allowing us to sustain margins at a satisfactory level. While we are not completely satisfied with costs at every level right now, we anticipate a mild revenue decline heading into the fourth quarter. Nevertheless, we believe the efforts we've made will help us maintain, if not slightly increase, the margin we achieved in the third quarter.

Next question is from Mr. Bruce Lu of Goldman Sachs.

Hello, can you hear me?

Yes.

Okay. Joseph, I think the management sounds a lot more bullish or positive in terms of AI revenue potentials. Given that the technology for AI in terms of packaging is so complicated for me, can you tell us what is the service you provided for AI is more legged to Fan-Out or sub tray or anything, what kind of profitability, what kind of return on equity, what kind of capital intensity for this business?

Well, we are getting pretty good traction with our customers in terms of both our Fan-Out as well as in proposal-based packaging products. And we will be aggressive engaging these customers and try to fit their needs. But at the same time, we are also increasing our collaboration with the upstream foundries in providing the sufficient capacity into this area. So, we are optimistic about the revenue from these different package type products coming from both directions, one is our own solutions and the other is really the collaboration with foundries.

But which one is stronger for there? For the past three months, which one turns out to be more positive to give the management like stronger confidence? Is it collaboration with foundry or yourself?

The collaboration is more stable there and it's more obvious. In terms of our own solution, I think the design or the process of it is still subject to a lot of customer discussion and also co-working with our customers. We are making a lot of progress on that and we were actually in mass production, but in terms of real volume, I think we should be seeing that coming from next year.

Okay, got it. What was the profitability for that? Capital intensity and profitability? The profitability for the AI-related business and the capital intensity for that?

Well, you're seeing our margin being gradually improving so because at least the margin should be good.

Hello, thanks for taking my question. So, first of all, congrats for the excellent results, especially for first quarter gross margin improvement. So first question is about your view about the cycle and I know right now customers are placing rush orders with wafer bank depleted. But do you think right now is the hard bottom in cycle, meaning for the first quarter, you then expect a further decline of the fab utilization? Can you give us some color about the cycle recovery? Thanks.

I don’t have a clear prediction for it. The market remains very volatile. One positive indication is that we believe we are nearing the end of the inventory digestion phase. However, I don’t think that is the main issue. The real concern is whether overall consumption will recover at a faster pace than what we are currently observing. This depends on various external factors. The ongoing conflict in the Middle East complicates the situation. While we believed inflation was under control, the war adds another variable. It’s difficult to predict the timing or speed of the industry's recovery. We are going to take it year by year. There are both positive and negative signs, but we’re focused on what we do best and serving our customers. We remain cautiously optimistic about next year and expect to see year-over-year growth throughout Q1 and the entire year.

Okay. Thanks, Joseph. So, just a look back, right, when did you start to see your feel that so-called rush orders? Can you give us a kind of timing when did you start to see that?

We have been experiencing rush orders throughout the years, especially in the last month of any given quarter, where we notice an influx of rush orders across the board. This trend seems to stem from customers being more cautious about restocking, as mentioned by Ken. Due to limited capacity, wafers, and materials, customers tend to wait until the last minute to place orders, seeking a clearer view of their upcoming demand. This pattern has been evident over the past few quarters and continues to be the case at this time.

Next question is from Mr. Rick Hsu of Daiwa Securities.

Hi. Good afternoon. Can you guys hear me?

Yes.

Okay, great. First question is regarding your capacity utilization across the board at ATM. I think, if I don't remember it wrong, Ken said something about mid 60s for Q3 right. So, I assume, given your steady decline in Q4 ATM revenue, so your loading should be below mid 60s in Q4. Is that right?

It will be slightly lower than 65%.

Okay, great. For the second question, your founder partners at TSMC and UMC are noticing some positive early signs of demand stability from PC, smartphone, and consumer electronic products. Do you agree with this assessment? If so, do you see any potential for counter-seasonal growth in your Q1 if there is an early recovery in demand from this consumer sector?

There are some scattered signs of optimism, but the demand is still uncertain. We anticipate potential volatility in 2024. However, we believe that conditions are beginning to improve, which is why we are cautiously optimistic about the upcoming year.

All right, thank you so much.

Thank you.

Next question is from Brad Lin of BoA.

Hello. Hi. Thanks for taking my question. I have two questions, one on generative AI and second on the silicon photonics. So basically, firstly, we are encouraged to learn the management's positive comments on the new generation of the consumer demand. I'm quite curious about what kind of the new applications should be expected for the consumer market and what are the applications that are inside for the AIC? And also what time do we expect it to, well, take off? Thank you.

I think AI is coming and we were expecting the AI technology to proliferate into so many different kinds of edge devices. And they will be the main thing for the next few years and will be a mega driving force for the industry to grow. And we're certainly going to be well prepared for it. I think the real cream for us is not just the AI chip itself, but the proliferating applications into all different kinds of devices that will create tremendous peripheral chip demand for us to satisfy.

Got it. So that’s structure or tray and then we should see a lot of the new application to come in coming years.

Exactly. And I think the momentum will really start to accelerate in 2024.

Got it. Got it. And then my second question is on the CPL. So we have learned ASE started our development of the CPL photonics for a couple of years during the past. So may we learn the opportunities and also the implication of the new technology? And what are the key barriers or challenges for ASE here in this new technology? Thank you.

Well, now being a technology guy, I think, from what I heard, that's still a few years away. Right now we're still focusing on the silicon photonics chips pathogen test. Going forward, I think the technology will just push the development of CPO and we're still at the investing stage. When the demand really comes, we'll be ready for it.

Next question is from Ms. Sunny Lin of UBS.

Hi, could you hear me okay?

Yes.

Thank you very much for taking my questions. So my first question is on interposer based 2.5D package. I think currently, the mastering solution is based on silicon interposer but there's increasing discussions on the technology move into RDL-based 2.5D package. And so based on your engagement with key customers, when do you think that shift will start to happen? And for ASE, I assume that you should be getting more opportunities if the industry does start to make that shift.

We are currently experiencing this trend and actively engaging with customers seeking more cost-effective solutions. At this stage, silicon interposer technology is more established, while RDL-based technology requires further discussions regarding design and processes with the customers we are working with. We are in mass production now, albeit in limited quantities, but we recognize its significant potential. We will keep investing in this area and collaborate closely with our customers to expand that segment of our business.

Got it. So a quick follow up on this part of the business. So in terms of the competition, obviously the leading foundry is also aggressive on the overall technology roadmap, some of your competitors are also focusing on exploring the opportunities. And so for ASE, what are some of the competitive advantage that you think you have, when competing with key projects?

Well, our long partnering relationship with the foundry certainly gives us an edge and given our scale and the technology that we have been growing over the years, I think we are certainly ahead of our competitors, and in whatever products that we are building today, or whatever technology that we're developing. So, the competition is given, there's always going to be competition. The key here is really to stay focused and you'll continue to bring out the satisfactory offering to our customers, as well as our upstream foundry partners.

Next question is from Mr. Szeho Ng of China Renaissance.

Hi. Thank you. My first question is regarding the pricing environment. So far, it seems to be quite stable but would there be a reset the pricing environment would be more aggressive and inflection point really kicks in when the market rate bottoms?

Pricing pressure is always present, but due to our scale and leading position, I believe our pricing remains more resilient compared to our competitors. We will keep working on the most appropriate pricing strategy to meet our needs and those of our customers.

I see. All right. And same question regarding the CapEx this year, and also any initial outlook for next year's CapEx?

Nothing for next year, but this year, we're sticking to our original CapEx roughly for equipment about a billion dollars and the split of it will be around 50% in assembly, 30% in tests, 17% in EMS and 3% for material.

Next question is from Mr. Gokul Hariharan of J.P. Morgan.

Yeah, hi, thanks for taking my question. So for some of these 2.5D packaging and advanced identity-related products, could you talk a little bit about how much more capital intensive these investments are? I think long time back, we used to talk about $1 revenue for $1 of CapEx for flip chip and much lower for wire bond. Could you talk a little bit about how we are seeing this capital intensity going up for some of these investments? Second, what is ASE’s stance on taking some customer-supported capacity buildups? Some of your competitors or some of your peers have kind of done some of the capacity expansion in partnership with some of the AI customers. Any thoughts on how ASE is approaching this kind of capacity build-out? And lastly, I think we've been seeing CapEx cuts or CapEx declining since 2021, so do we feel like we are reaching an inflection where we start to have to add some capacity, increased CapEx in next year or you think given utilization is still mid-60s, next year outlook is still not that clear to guide for any meaningful CapEx increase? Thank you.

We are observing an improved marketing environment for the upcoming year, and I wouldn't be surprised if next year’s capital expenditures are higher than this year's, though I don't have an exact figure at the moment. Regarding advanced packaging, we are still in the early stages of developing this aspect of our business. Therefore, we lack sufficient data to provide a precise estimate of the investment needed at this time. As mentioned earlier, the investments currently under consideration for these products are primarily aimed at alleviating bottlenecks in our existing capacity. I cannot provide a concrete number for the capital intensity of these products until we gather more data and until this segment of the business grows enough to yield more meaningful figures. Our approach will be driven by demand, the necessary technology and equipment, and favorable business conditions to ensure that any investment we make aligns with demand and offers a justifiable financial return.

Okay, got it. My second question is on the adoption of chiplets. We've seen a lot of that happen in the HPC side. Broadly, could you talk a little bit about how the chiplet adoption helps or changes ASE’s role, either adds to it or takes away something, but just how you think about it? And more specifically, do you see more chiplet-related packaging, potentially getting adopted even in the communication, the mobile smartphone segment, which is largely monolithic right now, looking out maybe a couple of years in terms of what you see and have discussions with your key mobile customers?

Chiplet technology is essential for specialty vessels, and there are physical limitations that we need to overcome with chiplet packaging, making it a growing trend. Currently, we believe it is still mainly within the HPC and networking sectors. It may take some time to better understand when and how quickly it will expand into other areas.

Next question is from Mr. Bruce Lu of Goldman Sachs.

Hi, Joseph, I want to ask about the dividend. Given your EBITDA is so much stronger than the CapEx, can we expect higher dividend payout ratio moving forward or at least for this year? You're paying $8, $7 for the last two years, given the weakness of this year, but your cash flow is still very strong, so can we expect a higher payout ratio this year?

I think we have been paying 60% to 65% over the years and no. This is not for me to answer. I think this has to go through the Board and, given the circumstance, I think we will have a good discussion on how we address this issue.

I understand that just like if you've maintained the 60%, 70%, given that the earnings decline more than that, so we don't want to see the dividends per share go down much, just the investor feedback. And another question was your testing, I mean, I think I do recall in early 2022 management turns more aggressive in testing, which generate pretty stronger growth and earnings. However if you look at from second, third quarter, your testing revenue for the quarter was substantially slower than your packaging business, at the same time, your peers in the testing business are doing pretty good with very impressive share price. So what kind of testing strategy can we expect? Do we expect some change for the testing? Do we turn more aggressive into testing? Do we get involved in the wafer-level testing moving forward? What kind of strategy can we expect?

We still maintain our positive outlook on testing, which we believe has significant potential for us. We aim to be proactive in developing tests, as this is a critical component of our overall strategy. We will reassess the situation to identify the best business avenues to pursue and the new technologies to invest in as we strive to enhance this segment of our operations. The current slower growth in our testing revenue compared to our peers is primarily due to broader shifts in the market. This is a key factor contributing to the differing growth patterns in our testing business compared to competitors. We are committed to refocusing our efforts on tests and will continue to drive that aspect of the business forward.

Next question is from Mr. Szeho Ng of China Renaissance.

Yeah, thanks for taking the question. Yeah. Regarding the interposer business, do you have any plan to get into the fabrication part of the business?

I'm sorry, I didn't get your question.

Do you have any plan to build an interposer internally?

Interposer internally, I wish we could but, no, I don't think we have any plans of doing that.

Because it doesn't fit our DNA right, I think for interposer?

I'm not sure this is really what our strength is and this is a way for a process and we're assembly house, so I don't see the real good fit in it.

Yes, it makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Thanks very much, Joseph.

Next question is from Mr. Charlie Chan - Morgan Stanley.

Hey, Joseph. Thanks for taking my question again. So I'm not trying to be picky but I'm very interested in your previous comments. You said usually in previous quarters, right, rush order only happen in a quarter end. But now we are at the beginning of the quarter, you still see rush orders coming in? Am I getting anything wrong or is that a sign of kind of demand is actually better than expected? How do we read this? Thanks.

No, I'm saying the pattern seems to be remaining. That's to say, by the end of the quarter, we could see some other rush orders coming in. I'm simply trying to say that the quarter-end rush orders seem to be the pattern up until now, yes.

Thank you. I have a couple of follow-up questions. First, regarding the AI chip placement business which lies between GPUs and ASICs in your testing operations, I’d like to understand the fundamental reasons for its increasing market share. Secondly, I want to ask about the long-term outlook; considering the capacity expansion in China’s maturing foundry sector, do you think China will gain market share? Would this imply that ASE might lose market share in the major foundry space, considering you likely sold your operations in China a few years ago?

I believe our operation in Suzhou, which remains in place, is quite different from the four factories we sold two years ago. The Suzhou factory is more advanced than those facilities and indicates the increasing demand in China, especially as the industry is becoming polarized. Demand is staying in China while other regions see declines. The Suzhou facility's advanced capabilities make it efficient and cost-effective, and it is performing well by catering to the higher-end technology needs of Chinese customers. While we might experience some revenue loss in terms of dollars, we’re actually gaining better quality business in China.

The testing for the GPU and ASIC, yes?

Other than congratulating, our competitor is doing a very good job in securing that type of business. Well, we have some catch-up to do and we will do so.

There are no more questions.

Okay. Thank you all for coming. Sorry for my low voice because I caught a cold. But, you know, thank you again for joining us and we'll see you next quarter.