Conference Transcript - NSC 2026-09-15

Speaker 3

This is not the hot seat at all. So, changing gears a little bit from trucking to rail, very happy to welcome back to Laguna, Norfolk Southern, and CFO, Jason Zampy, and Chief Commercial Officer, Ed Elkins. Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. So, what's going on? Pretty boring, right? No, obviously plenty of wood to chop in our session here today, but maybe I'll start at the cycle, actually, just given that's been the overarching theme of the conference so far. Obviously, a lot going on on the trucking side, the supply perspective, I think the theme of the conference so far has been positive but not gangbusters on the demand side. How do you see things playing out right now?

Ed Elkins

You know, it's interesting. We've been having conversations throughout the day, and that's kind of the way I would describe it for us. If there's three parts to the story, maybe, part of it is some demand. There's clearly some organic demand growth, but it's not gangbusters. I think that's a good way to phrase that. The second piece of it is really the depletion in supply on the truck side. That's clearly material and something that I think is probably not going to change. And the third piece is fuel and the influence that that cost component is having on the overall competitiveness of the rail product versus truck at this point. So a pretty good combination at this point.

Speaker 3

You don't mind any of those at all. Let's unpack all three of those maybe in reverse order because fuel is a very recent – I mean, it has been a thing all year, but I'd say particularly in the last few weeks, in the last week or so with $6 diesel kind of, are you seeing this change in real time? Is your phone ringing more and more off the hook, or do you think it's more of a slow burner?

Ed Elkins

I think it's been sort of an evolution, and you're right. It's been much more acute probably in the last three, four weeks than it had been previously, but it's been a constant theme really since March of this year. And the way Jason and I talk about it, along with Brian Barr, our COO, is it's doing a couple things. Number one, it's showing that we can be competitive in the current environment, but you can't just be price competitive. You have to be service competitive or at least service competent. And so it's given us a chance to do a couple things. Number one, we can help our channel partners on the intermodal side and also our true customers on the merchandise side. deliver more value for their customers, right, in that current environment. Some of them have to alter their supply chains to bring freight off the highway onto the rail. The next key part of that is can we demonstrate enough value in terms of service to keep them when all this stuff unwinds someday? And I do believe it will. I don't know when. So it's given us a really good look at some additional organic growth that we talked about, but also some freight that maybe wouldn't have considered the rail as an alternative for this year without that additional impetus. And so we're working really hard to make sure that we are doing everything we can to deliver a service product that's very predictable, low variation, and is essentially what we're promising.

Speaker 3

Jason, not to focus too much on the short term here, but what does $6 diesel mean for you guys from a net perspective for 3Q and 4Q when you look at fuel surcharge, what does it cost?

Jason Zampi, CFO

Yeah, so, you know, when you think about where we were in the second quarter, so we finished the quarter at a 65.5 operating ratio, which we felt pretty good about. It's a good base, especially given, you know, the headwind we had from fuel that was ongoing as well as inflation. So good jump-off point from there. you know at the in our second quarter call kind of end of july we were calling for a tailwind from fuel with respect to our operating ratio right so we we thought we had seen the peak kind of in the may time frame prices were coming down and we had a pretty favorable forward fuel curve well two months later that's obviously wrong um and so you know what we've seen is prices continue to go up and you know we've got based on the curve that came out last week you know just really elevated prices for the remainder of the year so that's a you know that's a significant headwind for us so like i said we were we're thinking we'd be at a tailwind now we're a headwind um and really just to put that in a kind of order of magnitude that's like 250 basis points on our operating ratio of headwind um again just from where we were two months ago so we were calling for you know a sequential maybe better than seasonal sequential improvement But from second to third, now we actually think we're going to be a little bit worse than seasonal, you know, performance really due to that, what's happening with fuel.

Speaker 3

Understood. I'll come back to unpack OR in a second, but to kind of Ed's point, are there any non-fuel surcharge, like non-fuel revenue surcharge tailwinds on the revenue side in terms of share gain from truck or something that's a positive offset to that?

Ed Elkins

I think we are seeing some freight that is coming to us because of the extraordinary costs they're experiencing on the truck side. And it's not just on intermobile. We're seeing it across many of our merchandise markets where what I would call the freight is not rail-centric or truck-centric, but, you know, it could go either way. Coiled steel, for example, or various paper products, consumer products, even lumber. which is not an up market, but we're actually seeing some share gain there because of what's happening with fuel. It's just pulling freight off the road. Talking about fuel, we talk about $6 diesel, but out here it's $8 diesel, if you notice on the way in, which is like science fiction. But anyway, I do keep a very cautious eye, and Jason and I talk about it all the time. what does that mean for the economy over time? I think that certainly is something that we have to keep our eyes open to, and really we're doing everything we can to put as much sensor in the environment as we can to see what's happening there, because ultimately, over some period of time, that's going to be a drag on the consumer.

Jason Zampi, CFO

And I think, like Ed said, that's really the key for us is to watch that. You know, the fuel expense and the fuel surcharge we have over time kind of works its way out, Obviously, it has significant impacts quarter to quarter, but it's really that component. Do you get to a place where this really starts to impact demand?

Speaker 3

With that $8 diesel talk, I'm going to ask you about electric locomotives in a second. But let's go back to the other two factors you mentioned, which is truck supply and demand. Let's do demand first. You mentioned a few end markets here. Any changes from what you told us on the 2Q call in terms of end market outlooks for any particular positive or negative?

Ed Elkins

Not really. I would say we still see clear demand growth on the industrial side. And you've seen manufacturing expand for, what, eight months now? So I think that bodes well. We still see a lot of what I would call tailwind for us on the industrial development side and projects rolling over into the design and construction phase, which we think bodes well long term. And then on the intermodal side, we're clearly seeing some demand growth on the domestic non-premium and on the premium side of the business. On the international side of the business, I think probably some pull-ahead occurred earlier this year. And I don't know if this conference has talked about it yet or not, but there's a fairly extraordinary price differential between East Coast and West Coast landing right now, which I think is probably having some temporary headwind on East Coast port volumes at this point.

Speaker 3

Just kind of sticking to the point on intermodal and merchandise volumes, just on intermodal itself, is this something that you see kind of coming fairly steadily through, like in a quarter by quarter, as truckload kind of goes through whatever issues it's going through, or do you think it's something that's going to, like, you know, you'll see, like, big step-up jumps kind of as you go through 27?

Ed Elkins

Well, I wish I knew that part, but here's what I suspect.

Speaker 3

Consult your trustee, Chris.

Ed Elkins

What I expect is that we're going to continue to gain incremental share in the current environment. I think when we get to bid season for Intermodal, which is January through April of next year, that's where we'll probably see our next big opportunity to actually take share from the highway and deliver value for them as new contracts come on board for our beneficial cargo owners.

Speaker 3

I just wanted to model. Obviously, there was some share shift with the merger announcement. What innings are we in there? And kind of how do you see that playing out? Would you ask that question? What innings are you in for that share shift? And kind of how do you see that playing out?

Ed Elkins

You know, we're going to lap all that stuff. Coming up in the fourth quarter. I think when you look at the data, what you see is that the local east in the U.S. network has grown the most. And so I think we'll show well going forward coming out of here. And I think the value of our network and the value of the product that we're putting out there right now is very, very good for the business and for our chances going forward.

Speaker 3

On merchandise, are there specific kind of mix factors to call out in terms of certain merchandise and markets versus the other, or is it, like, pretty steady through all of them?

Ed Elkins

No, there's a whole bunch of put and takes out there.

Speaker 3

Yeah, but what's a net?

Ed Elkins

I think what you're going to see over time is on the merchandise side, it's actually a positive mix over the long term. We're actually winning more business in our chemicals book, although, frankly, the portion we're winning is the lower-rated side of the chemicals book. So there'll be some puts and takes there. Overall, we're going to grow intermodal. We are growing intermodal pretty fast. So it'll be flat to maybe a little bit of negative mix over the long period for the entire book of business. But just to talk about price for a minute, we're executing on price in our merchandised book. I feel really good about that. Our customers are clearly seeing the value in the network that we're delivering for them. And on the intermodal side, we're in kind of the early innings of that story. And it'll play out more next year.

Speaker 3

The LTL truckers say that you sort of need ISM over 55 for them to see kind of juice on volumes. 50 plus is like good but not great. Is there a similar threshold for you guys? Is 50 plus good enough for you? Is it 55 enough? Where do you see that step up? Well, positive beats negative for sure. you know more is better that's the second thing but but i would say honestly if we're in positive territory especially with the fuel environment and regimen the way it is i feel pretty good about our chances in the marketplace got it understood um and uh on intramodal um kind of at you spoke of the international dynamics kind of with the kind of the the pork shift and remind us again what your mix is like and kind of what kind of potential margin impact there might be with that kind of hit to East Coast volumes versus...

Ed Elkins

You mean East Coast, West Coast mix?

Speaker 3

Not East Coast, but as much as international domestic and kind of how that contributes.

Ed Elkins

It's probably 65 or 70% domestic overall. Right? So international is a minority and then our West Coast business is a minority of that.

Speaker 3

Got it. So is that something that shows up in 3Q or do you think it's more of a the second half.

Ed Elkins

It'll probably show up a little bit in 3Q. We'll see what happens those differentials because they're pretty doggone extraordinary right now. I don't know that they're sustainable.

Speaker 3

Got it. So obviously the conflict in the Middle East is a big factor that's influencing customer thought. What about tariffs? Is that a thing where people are now past that and we sort of have some kind of, it seems like, stable resolution, the Canada stuff notwithstanding, or is that still an item of uncertainty that's kind of keeping shippers in way?

Ed Elkins

I suspect I can only go off what I'm seeing in terms of evidence in the marketplace. And I look at our industrial development pipeline as a clear piece of evidence there. We had a long pipeline last year that really wasn't moving very much. And I think that was really about people wishing to have more clarity before they invest, whether it's tariffs, whether it's the conflict, et cetera, et cetera. And I think, frankly, this year people have reached a point where, and companies have reached a point where they need to invest, they need to expand, and they're going to have to move, so they are. And so I view tariffs as certainly still perhaps a known unknown, but I think people are mostly past that. The war is different, and certainly the effect on fuel and global shipping routings is something new.

Speaker 3

You briefly mentioned your yield focus here. So give us a sense of what your pricing conversations are like right now. Does the truck market tightness make it super easy for you to basically name your price? or are shippers now super sensitive to shipping costs? And so you have to be more reasonable about it. And also, what does $6 diesel mean for that? If your fuel surcharge number is already eye-popping, does that help or hurt with pushing base rate?

Ed Elkins

Yeah, I think this is going to be a really boring answer, but it all goes back to what the value of the product you're offering is. With a high-quality service product, we're able to go in and demonstrate value to customers, and it's a pretty easy decision for them to come across the aisle, so to speak, and move intermodal. Where you don't have a good service product, it's a damn hard conversation, no matter what the price of fuel is, because if they can't trust you, it's very difficult to make those kind of decisions. So that's why Jason and I and Brian have spent so much time focused on making sure we have the right resources is in the right place so that we can have those conversations from a position of what I would call confidence and a position where our customers believe us.

Speaker 3

Just on the topic of service, which you referenced a few times, there was a little bit of pressure on service metrics coming out of the winter. That got much better kind of early in the summer. Where do you see that kind of ending the summer and going into the fall potentially as volumes start to surge with the struck conversion?

Jason Zampi, CFO

Yeah, you know, I think you heard us talk in our second quarter earnings call about some of the issues we had during the second quarter. You know, I think Brian and the ops team have done a fantastic job. Really, even by mid to end of July, we were seeing, like, on-time originations were up 20 percent from where we were in second quarter. Speed and depth dwell had improved. So I think, you know, performing really well there. And that's in the face of really pretty high sustained volumes, 140,000-ish, you know, 145,000 a week. so i felt really good about that i think going forward you know the the the network looks good i think we're poised to take on additional additional volume um we've got you know we're continuing always to make sure we've got resources in the right place whether those are people locomotives that type of thing and you know making sure that we're continuing to build that pipeline to to focus on growth to come so i think we're in a really good place from a from a service and network perspective.

Speaker 3

So just to follow up there, kind of how do you see the current resource utilization, kind of how much access capacity do you think you have in the network in terms of volumes you can bring on before you start bringing resources back on again?

Jason Zampi, CFO

Yeah, I think, you know, from a T&E perspective, you know, we've talked before, folks that are driving, you know, train an engine, that that is a relatively long period to get people on board. So what we want to do there is keep a pretty consistent pipeline going, right? We're filling attrition. We've got 85 different locations where we hire people. There's some that are more significant. We're making sure those are full. So I think it's really watching that and then working closely with Ed's team to see where is that demand going to be because it matters. We can't just easily take a person here and move them over to a different location. So they need to be in the right places. So we need to know where is the volume coming and what type of volume is it. Is it unit train volume, you know, grain or coal, or is it just manifest cars here and there, right, which is a lot easier to handle? So I don't think we're at the point where we've got to, you know, spool up disproportionately to the volume increases. But, you know, obviously you get to a point where, you know, we do need to start adding some additional resources. But, again, I think we're in a good place right now from a people and locomotive perspective.

Speaker 3

Got it. You guys have delivered a significant amount of productivity savings over the last couple of years. which honestly is a little bit surprising just given how much you took out during the PSR year. So you clearly have found more. Where do we stand there and kind of what's the opportunity for 27?

Jason Zampi, CFO

So, you know, like you said, Ravi, we've harvested about $500 million, a little over $500 million in the last two years, productivity, cost reductions. We're on track this year for another $150 million. You know, I think the thing that's impressive here, it's really all structural, what we've done. You know, it's not volume dependent, and in fact, the last couple years, you know, we haven't grown that much, but yet we've still been able to take these out. So lots of good things in our control there that we're working through, and I think we still have, you know, we still have runway there from whether it's, you know, locomotive modernizations, fuel efficiency, terminal productivity, you know, all things we're continuing to press on. You know, and then you add volume absorption on top of that, and I think it's, you know, still a really powerful story. So I think we've got a good path moving forward on productivity as well.

Speaker 3

I'll come to merger questions in a second and just how long-term focused you guys are at this point. But just given all of those moving parts, obviously you spoke to headwinds on the OR side for 3Q and 4Q. But what are we thinking, kind of, you put all this together, is that long-term sustainable OR level that you guys can target?

Jason Zampi, CFO

Yeah, so I think, you know, when you think about OR, you know, like you said, talked about kind of near term, our focus is really on, you know, safety, service, cost discipline, and earning the trust of our customers, right? That is a winning model regardless of what's going on. We think that that will really help to drive us on a long-term basis to an industry competitive operating ratio. So I don't know if Ed wants to comment on any kind of, you know, commercial things that we could bring in. But when I view it, I think two things that are really in our control. One is service, right, safely delivering a reliable and consistent service product. That's in our control. There's always going to be hiccups, storms, other disruptions, things like that. But it's how quickly we respond to those and, you know, and get things back on track. And that's what we've demonstrated here over the last couple of years now. So that consistent service product, that will drive growth. It also drives cost efficiency as well. So that's one thing. The second piece is, like we talked about, is on the productivity front, right? It's continuing to push on those things. Not everything in our cost structure we can control. We talked about fuel price. But for the other things, we're doing a good job of controlling what we can control, continuing to push on productivity. So I really think those are two significant levers, both in our control, that are going to help us to drive that operating ratio to a perspective of, you know, industry competitive. The last thing I'd add in there, you know, the macro probably impacts the timing more than anything else, right? Obviously, if we have a strong recovery, that's going to help improve margins more quickly. You know, if we don't, you know, it's really about execution and maintaining that core strategy.

Speaker 3

Got it. So let's switch gears and talk about, obviously, the topic that may have dominated your Q&A so far, which is the merger. So congratulations to the STB. Obviously, accepted the application, moved the merger proceeding from abeyance, and now is in the merits phase. How should investors think of this development, and what can we look forward to from here?

Jason Zampi, CFO

Yeah, I think it's a really good development procedurally as we move into this merits phase. You know, we're pleased to be in that phase of this process right now. I think about it kind of in three big pieces going forward. So you kind of have, you know, a comment period and request period, and you also have DOJ and DOT comments. Those are kind of like, you know, mid-November to early December time frame. Then you'll have our responses to those kind of in the February time frame. And then sometime after March, you'll go into the public hearing. So I kind of look at it in those three big chunks, and that's when I would expect to see big pieces of information coming out from there. So ultimately, the final timing is, of course, up to the STB, but I think just having this schedule out provides us a lot of visibility, helps us from a planning perspective, and really gives us a date to kind of drive towards forward on this path.

Speaker 3

Got it. And obviously, we'll hear from Jim Venner tomorrow, but so far, how has the procedure gone versus your expectations at the point that we're in right now?

Jason Zampi, CFO

Yeah, I think, sure, we've all wanted it to go faster, but I think when you think about this, we kind of came out originally, and we were talking maybe 18 to 21 months or something like this, that would take. and i think at the end of the day if this procedure hold this procedural schedule holds it's not going to be too much longer than that so it's not too far out of that um you know that total time period again there's been puts and takes in terms of you know when things were accepted and when we moved to different phases but you know all in i think we're we're kind of uh again where maybe we thought we'd be you know on a conservative basis but also um you know right right where we should be from getting any of the merits of the deal now got it uh and from your

Speaker 3

side, you've added several customer protections, expanded committed gateway pricing, reciprocal switching protections, and rate dispute resolution. Can you talk about the process that drove you to offer those concessions and do you think that meets the threshold for what the STB is looking for?

Ed Elkins

Well, it's pretty simple. I think we're doing exactly what the STB wants us to do, and that's listen to our customers, engage with them, be responsive to the stakeholders that are involved in this and that's really where we where we came from when we made those additional uh changes and so you you think about doubling the the amount of freight that's eligible so to speak for uh committed gateway pricing adding unit training to that piece those are those are clear line of sight responses to what we were hearing from our customer base you put together those changes with the other parts of this whether it's the service alternatives or the pricing pieces. And really and truly, I mean, I'm biased, but I think it's a very compelling package when we think about offering a lot of value to the market.

Speaker 3

And speaking of agreements you've reached, obviously you've reached an agreement with Canadian National that gives them access to certain 2-to-1 and 3-to-2 shipper facilities, as well as some Norfolk Southern interests that have been transferred over to them. Should we expect additional agreements like this? Like, do you think that was a one-off? Do you think that's kind of, again, enough to kind of meet the threshold of the STB?

Ed Elkins

Now I sound really boring, but I'll go back to what I said a minute ago. I think we're doing exactly what the STB wants us to do, and that is we're reaching out to other stakeholders, trying to find solutions that offer value, but at the same time protect the value. of this extraordinary opportunity that we have in front of us to deliver for our customers and for America. And I think it's strategically important that CN is going to be able to offer that additional access, so to speak, for those 3-2 and 2-1. They're going to help us in places like St. Louis and the Terminal Road and all that kind of stuff. And we'll see what else is out there. I would never foreclose opportunities that may help us solve problems for our customers and for other roads.

Jason Zampi, CFO

I would just add on there, I think it's a great development in this process, but it's just one element of what we've presented to the STB in terms of the value that this transaction brings on its own.

Speaker 3

Got it. We briefly touched on earlier the share shift that came immediately after the merger was announced. To your point, you started lapping that pretty soon. When do you think you guys can go back on offense and kind of start taking share back? Does that need the merger to be consummated before that happens? And how do you think competitive dynamics might permanently change between the class one railroads as a result of this transaction?

Ed Elkins

You're inferring that we were ever off offense.

Speaker 3

Well, fair enough. Again, I think some things that happened that may have been slightly outside your control. So when can you go back there?

Ed Elkins

Yeah, I think we're always on offense and defense. That's just the way of the world. It's a competitive landscape, and we're out there fighting every day for new business and to maintain what we have. The power of our network, our intermodal network in particular, it is one of our superpowers, right? We service, I think it's something like 100 million American consumers wake up within 50 miles of one of our intermodal ramps. Some of them wake up within 50 miles of, like, four of them. So we have a substantial place in the market in terms of the value that we can offer with that network. And I'm very confident as we move forward, merger, no merger, as a standalone company, we're going to be able to deliver that exceptional value because of that network and the way we execute on it.

Speaker 3

Got it. That's super helpful. We have a few minutes left. I want to see if there are any questions from the audience. You have one up here.

Speaker 1

Thank you. Yes, thanks for giving the question. I remember in the past that NSC was relatively strong, especially in automotive, given the location and a lot of cars coming from Western Europe. How is tariffs impacting that trade and how important it is to still today in your business? I remember in the past about 12% of sales, also given public information that market margins in automotive are relatively high. So what did this do with your business, and have we touched the bottom, and where are we with that?

Ed Elkins

At the risk of making a bold statement, I would say I think tariffs have been an event that has occurred and is now in the past. I don't think it has a necessarily ongoing influence on a lot of those markets like the auto markets. We're very lucky by virtue of geography and the effort of past generations of railroaders. We have a superb automotive network, not only for domestic manufacturing from the Detroit 3, but also from a lot of European manufacturers. So we're, I think, a very good place. The country is actually in a pretty good place with regard to being able to compete globally, but also be able to deliver values in that network that we have. So tariffs are a thing, but honestly, I think it was maybe a one-time event.

Speaker 3

Any other questions?

Speaker 2

Hi. Just wondering, with the regulatory process potentially extending well into 2027, I'm just wondering how you guys are ensuring that management and employees remain focused on stand-alone execution and if there's any investments, commercial decisions, or capital allocation actions that become more difficult while the transaction remains pending.

Jason Zampi, CFO

Yeah, sure. I'll start on that. Stand-alone execution is our mandate, right? And, you know, I talked about our focus on safety, service, cost discipline, and, you know, building trust with our customers. That's key, and we're delivering. We're executing on that strategy. If you look at, you know, record second quarter revenue, continued productivity that we're delivering, you know, the list goes on. You know, second quarter, decent OR, but 5% operating income growth. So, I mean, I think we're doing a lot of great things from a standalone perspective. When you think about investments, you know, we continue to invest in our people and in our infrastructure. You know, this year, call it just rough numbers about, you know, we're going to spend about $2 billion in CapEx, and that's to continue to support the network from a safety and resilience perspective, a growth perspective, and continue to invest in technology. So, I mean, no change there from our strategy. And those are things that are going to be important as a standalone company, but also as part of a combined entity going into that merger from a strong perspective.

Speaker 3

Any more questions? I did want to ask you about autonomous trucks because that's been a big topic of discussion for us all year at this conference as well. I believe it's come up in every meeting that people have had. How much time are you guys spending thinking about what that means for the industry? Obviously, truck conversion is a big part of the value created by this transaction. So, yeah, how much time are you spending on it? What do you think that means for the transaction for the industry over time?

Ed Elkins

I'll answer first, and you can go into it. I don't know what it means for the transaction itself. But I will tell you, you know, part of my mandate is to look out into the future and try to create a future that outcompetes where we are today. In many ways, I would say that autonomous trucking or trucking writ large has done a pretty good job of moving the ball down the field. Railroads in general, we've got a fair number of headwinds to some of those more innovative pathways that perhaps trucking companies have. I personally think that autonomous trucking probably reaches some sort of scale starting maybe in the next 18 months. You know, it's just Ed talking. But it also means that we have to figure out how we do things differently and how we deliver additional value to our customers in a way that makes it more compelling than what they can find on the other side of the road, so to speak. That's our job. And technology has to be a part of that. That's just my opinion.

Jason Zampi, CFO

I would just add, you know, not necessarily from an autonomous perspective, but just technology advancement. You know, you talk about what we've been able to do here. And over a relatively short period of time, we've got 11 digital train inspections, stations that we have across our network. You know, kind of think about it like a large car wash. But the train's going through there at, you know, track speed, 40-plus miles an hour, taking like 1,000 pictures per car. And that's finding things that, you know, the human eye can't detect and definitely not at that speed, right? So we're constantly looking at everything that could cause a problem down the line. So it allows us to fix it quickly, address it right away. And at the end of the day, it's good for us, good for our customers, you know, keeps right on its way to destination. So I think there's things that we're definitely doing in the industry that, you know, super proud of that we've been able to do. you know even going back to locomotive modernizations you know we've we've just done over a thousand of those now and that's been that's been great for our fleet so you know really trying to like ed said stay on that front edge of you know what are the things we can do to advance technology i will say and this is i'm reflecting on your question now look at the heart of this transaction this merger is the idea that we want to become the most user-friendly most customer friendly pathway out there, that's very difficult to do when you have multiple railroads with

Ed Elkins

their own strategies on how they're going to become more customer friendly. And you can only touch part of your customers with your own strategy, and they have to live with all these other strategies, or maybe not, on other parts of their network. So by presenting a combined company that can service the entire array of freight that's out there on a nationwide basis, particularly when I think about the platforms that we've developed, the investments that others have made, we clearly need that kind of innovation to successfully compete. And I think that's one of the value propositions behind this merger.

Speaker 3

Gentlemen, thank you so much for the thoughts. I hope to have you at Laguna next year, or maybe not. Either way, you'll be fine. So thanks so much for being here.