Smurfit Westrock plc Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us today for our fourth quarter and full year 2025 results. As a reminder, statements in today's press releases and presentations and the comments made by management during this call may be considered forward-looking statements. These statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause our actual results to differ materially from our expectations and projections. These risks and uncertainties include, but are not limited to, the factors identified in the earnings release and in our SEC filings as well as those discussed in our investor update presentation on our medium-term plan. The company undertakes no obligation to revise any forward-looking statements. Today's remarks also refer to certain non-GAAP financial measures. Where applicable, reconciliations to the most comparable GAAP measures are included in today's earnings release and in the appendix to the accompanying presentation, which are available at investors.smurfitwestrock.com. In addition, today's remarks include statements about Smurfit Westrock's medium-term financial goals and capital allocation priorities. These goals are aspirational and actual performance may differ, possibly materially, and no guarantees are made that these goals will be met. For additional information, please refer to our medium-term plan related presentation. Tony will now present an abridged version of our fourth quarter results, after which we will take some questions before moving on to the medium-term plan. You'll note the additional level of disclosure in the appendix to the fourth quarter results presentation facilitating that shorter discussion. In the interest of time, I request those asking questions to restrict themselves to one. I'll now hand you over to Tony Smurfit, CEO of Smurfit Westrock.

Thank you, Ciaran, and good morning or good afternoon to everyone from a warming up New York City. Today, I'm joined by Ken Bowles, our Executive Vice President and Group CFO, along with Saverio Mayer, Laurent Sellier and Alvaro Henao, who run our regions as we'll be presenting, as you know, the medium-term plan later. Before I get into the quarter, you'll have seen our recent announcement on the closure of our SBS machine in La Tuque, Quebec, which is another step in our portfolio optimization. Decisions such as this, while always difficult, are carefully considered and any further portfolio optimizations will be done in an equally considered manner. In the context of what were difficult market conditions across many of our countries, I am very pleased with the performance we've delivered during the quarter and, of course, for the year. In the quarter, we reported USD 1.172 billion of adjusted EBITDA and an adjusted EBITDA of USD 4.939 billion for the year. This is, by far, the largest outturn by any packaging company in the world. And I'm incredibly proud of the performance of everyone in the company who has contributed towards this. In addition, in our first full year of operation, we focused on cash, generating USD 679 million of adjusted free cash flow for the quarter and over USD 1.5 billion for the year. I view this as a key metric of our success. Finally, while this is far away from the summit of our ambitions, our adjusted margin at 15.5% for the quarter and a similar number for the year provides a great launching pad for our future success. Looking now at the results by region for the quarter. Our adjusted EBITDA in North America was down modestly year-on-year at $651 million and a margin of 14.7%. Conversely, our European margins expanded during the quarter to over 16% and an adjusted EBITDA of $438 million. And lastly, but by no means least, once again, we had a very strong performance in our Latin American region, with margins of over 24% and an adjusted EBITDA of over $130 million. With regard to volumes, you will see a sharp fall in our North American volume with stable volumes in Europe and stronger growth in our Latin American region. We'll talk to these figures in a few moments as I go through the regions. Turning now to the group and regional highlights. I am very proud of the medium-term plan that we have created and will be presenting to you very shortly. This has been the accumulation of a year-long effort that has been done bottom up. While all of us here steered the direction of the plan, every individual operating unit within the company has developed their ideas for the future, and the outcomes of which you'll see shortly. During the first full year, the group continued to put its balance sheet on an ever more positive footing with successful refinancings and associated redemptions of bonds pushing the next maturity out to 2028 with an average interest rate of 4.64%. It is a fundamental philosophy of all of us in the group to have balance sheet strength. And you will see at year-end, we have reduced our leverage to 2.6x moving towards our target of 2x. Reflecting the confidence we have, we continue to have a progressive dividend. And again, as was noted last week, we have increased our dividend by a further 5%. Smurfit Westrock, as was the case in Smurfit Kappa, continued to see the dividend as a key pillar of our capital allocation framework. This was evidenced quite clearly during the COVID years when others cut or delayed their dividend, but we paid in full. Turning now to the regions. Let me start with North America. When we arrived in the legacy WestRock organization and following our first 6 months, we identified there was business in our portfolio that was heavily loss-making for the company and for the individual operating units. Our fundamental philosophy, and that is why we have successfully stood the test of time, is that every unit must be able to justify its own existence. As such, we have shared uneconomic business, which will be replaced. To give you and me confidence, half of the 1.2 billion square meters we have lost has already been replaced and is in the process of being implemented in our system. And our prospects in what we call our pipeline significantly exceed the business that has been lost, both in terms of volume and quality. The short-term effect of the low volume loss is the need for us to take additional downtime in the mill system, which we've taken in Q4 amounting to a cost of about $85 million. A hallmark of this company has always been working capital management and cash generation. So this action has been necessary to make sure we optimize our system. In the year gone by, we have significantly reduced the number of loss-makers already within the organization. We have also optimized our footprint with some closures, which we will continue to proactively evaluate reflecting our recent announcement and other closures during 2025. We've already started implementing our investment programs, and most importantly, we've been putting in place the right people to take our North American business forward. With regard to EMEA and APAC, we have a very good business in this region, and our margins reflect that. If you consider how the rest of the whole industry is performing, and you see where we currently sit, I'm sure you'll recognize that our positioning in this area is indeed very strong. What is also very interesting is that our consumer business is adding a lot to our offering, to our strong customer base as we see nothing but opportunities to continue to progress this business alongside our strong corrugated business. Of course, in light of the current paper market situation, we are looking at our footprint with a continuing focus on portfolio optimization. Our Latin American business remains incredibly strong with great margins and a seamless integration achieved between both legacy Smurfit Kappa and WestRock. I'll let Alvaro reflect on this in a few moments. As I stated at the outset, our first full year of operation, integration and development at Smurfit Westrock has been truly outstanding, notwithstanding that the general economic environment has been as difficult as I have seen in my lifetime for such an extended period of time. Our significant achievements, which everyone in the company is proud of as it sits within our vision, is that we have been recognized by Forbes, Fortune and Time Magazine as a leader and one of the world's great companies. Our designers continue to meet and exceed our customers' needs and our operations continue to deliver superior performance in quality and service. And this is regularly recognized with over 230 awards received by customers and suppliers. Our consistent improvement in quality, productivity and utilization and on-time and full delivery for customers is what is driving many of the recognitions and awards we have received. In closing out the year, we recognize that we have well overachieved our initial synergy target of $400 million, and while much of this is masked by the general economic activity we see, we believe this sets us up to be a much more efficient and leaner organization into the future. And lastly, as I mentioned, our improved balance sheet of 2.6x levered has been recognized by Fitch with an upgrade to BBB+. Finally, turning to our outlook, notwithstanding that we've had significant weather events, both in Europe and, of course, here in the United States, and we're continuing to work through the impact of these, the year has begun with a generally better industry operating environment. Given our progress in developing new and high-quality business, the enthusiasm of our teams and our expectation for an improving economy in the second half of the year, we currently expect the first quarter adjusted EBITDA of between $1.1 billion and $1.2 billion with a full year 2026 adjusted EBITDA between USD 5 billion and USD 5.3 billion. With the plan that we have in place to invest and grow our business, we remain extremely confident in the future of Smurfit Westrock as the go-to paper and packaging company for customers, for talented employees, for suppliers and, of course, for shareholders in the years ahead. In summary, full year 2025 has been about establishing a strong foundation for future performance and future success. I thank you all for your attention. And now Ken and I will take any questions on the results before moving on to the medium-term plan. Thank you.

Tony, in terms of the outlook for this year, can you talk to the extent that pricing is already baked into your forecast or not? And then ultimately, recognizing you don't manage the business week by week, month by month, what is the expectation for volume progressions, especially within corrugated, but in box board over the course of the year?

No, we don't do it week by week, day by day, but Ken, I'll let you take the pricing piece. Our expectation, George, is that we saw a firming up of order books in the latter part of December. We felt that the first part of the fourth quarter was weak, and then that sort of improved as we progressed through the quarter. And we were seeing decent order books across most of the businesses in which we operate and countries in which we operate as we progressed in January. That has been somewhat interrupted a little bit by the weather and that will have an effect.

George, so the long and the short answer is no. For the first quarter, clearly not because you wouldn't expect anything anyway. But for the year, no, we haven't baked in any aspect of it because our style, if you like, would be to wait until it's in before we can consider it. I think also you can focus on the price increases; there are outputs there in terms of other paper grades that might happen there. So the net-net is we feel comfortable with the 5 to 5.3 based on where everything is now without baking in anything else.

Tony, can you give us a little feel for where you are in the process of churning some of these lower loss-making contracts? And you talked about a robust pipeline where you can more than offset that. What does that actually mean? Have you secured contracts? And how does that kind of layer in, I guess, to the puts and takes of those dynamics?

Phil, that's a great question. I'm going to hand that over to the guy you want to hear from on that, the guy at the coal face, which is Laurent, but basically, I think I am really happy. Most of the bad stuff has gone. We've still got a couple of contracts that will phase out or we might keep or we might lose because we're under contract with really bad volumes there. So, but the price is so bad, I would expect we'll keep it, but at a much higher margin. But then I'll let you talk, Laurent, about how successful we've been. And I'm really, really happy with how we're doing.

So it's something that unravels over time, as you can imagine. So the contract when we lose the volume tends to go pretty fast because we terminate the volumes and then you need to rebuild. What Tony referred to in terms of pipeline is, you can imagine layers of conversations, one very close to happening; others a little bit less warm and others that are more like prospects. But the overall perspective and prospect is very encouraging. And that's the reason why we've gone exactly this way. We had very underperforming contracts. We needed to stop them at some point and be ready to take on more volume and very good margin conditions over time.

You won't achieve success unless you're willing to take some risks. We had to eliminate the underperforming aspects of our operations to create capacity for our sales team. Now we have a few hundred salespeople across the United States ready to sell. Some will excel, while others may not perform as well, and those who don't succeed won't remain with the company long-term. We will ensure our success by leveraging our capacity to sell effectively. When you're tied to low-volume contracts that don't generate profit, it limits your potential. So, we had to make the necessary changes.

Just a follow-up to that, Tony. In terms of the approach going forward, how is the sales force prospecting these types of customers perhaps differently under your watch versus a year ago? And any more perspective on these contracts that are perceived to be good? Obviously, it's focused on profitability, but any more color in terms of, is it more commoditized versus non-commoditized business, regional versus national accounts? Just give us a little more perspective on what makes a good customer?

A good customer is a customer you can bring value to and who you can solve their problems. Every customer has a different problem that you need to identify with, and a good salesperson is finding those problems and identifying how they can help solve our customers' problems. I mean, we'll talk about it in the medium-term plan, but our suite of tools, our suite of applications is second to none in the world. We're able to solve any customer's problem to make them help them in their own marketplaces. That's how we get to the point where we're not selling just a box; we're selling packaging solutions for them. It could be redesigned. It can be supply chain. It can be environmental. It can be whatever they need, and it's up to us to make sure that our sales teams, both regionally and nationally are able to sell. That's what we've been doing for decades in North America and Latin America, and it's something that we're just good at, frankly.

I think as well, Phil, and Tony has spoken about it across the year, is that kind of key underpin of quality and service in terms of the customer. I think it's fair to say that in the last year or so, on-time in full (OTIF) and parts per million (PPM) and all those metrics that are very much part of how we do business, and it goes to what we bring to the customer, how we can bring value on time and quality are kind of the key underpinnings to that. To enable Laurent to have the conversations we have has to come back to quality and service.

And the one thing we've changed in addition is the organization, bringing the sales force much closer to the operating units. That gives a lot of flexibility and also much more direct contact between the sales force and the potential customers, which I think is a great plus. It's still in the making, but that's happening at pace.

And just one final point before I move on, we also allow our salespeople to entertain our customers by buying them a drink, which was previously not permitted. They were only allowed to focus on selling based on price, but that's not our approach. We prioritize providing our customers with value for their money.

I'm Lewis Roxburgh from Goodbody. Just on that value over volume piece, just wondered sort of how that piece will contribute. Do you think that will translate to pricing outperforming the benchmark or maybe cost takeout from rightsizing and efficiency? Or in terms of volume, we've seen some deliberate drop off this year, just seeing how that will evolve? Do you think that will sort of close more towards, as you said, normalized levels of demand towards the end of this year?

Thank you, Lewis. If you look at our performance in Europe, we have gained market share due to our strong focus on serving our customers with high quality, good design, and value. This is how we are gaining market share. If your question is whether we should see positive growth this time next year, the answer is yes. I would be very disappointed if we don’t. As I've mentioned and as Laurent has said, we have many opportunities with customers, and I expect to secure a significant number of them. We have already secured a lot, and I am very pleased with the momentum of our business.

Mark Weintraub at Seaport Research Partners. Thank you, first of all, for the bridges, which you provided kind of on the look back; that's super helpful. And so get a little, ask for a little more. So as we look at the 2026 outlook, pricing, you're not using that as sort of an ingredient on what you have as an improvement '26 over 2025. Presumably, inflation is going to be working against us as it always is. Can you help us, are these synergies, cost takeouts, I'm assuming the first half of the year on volume is tough, so maybe you're going to be better year-over-year in the second half. Can you help us understand how we can get to better EBITDA in 2026 than 2025 with those drivers?

Yes, Mark, thank you. We appreciate your patience regarding the bridges, but they have been just as frustrating for us as they have been for you. It's a large organization to coordinate. Looking ahead to 2026, pricing and volume will remain what they are. We've discussed this before. Regarding the synergy program, we expect to see some synergies materialize in 2026, likely in the range of $40 million to $50 million. However, in terms of energy, we anticipate a net negative impact of around $60 million to $70 million. On a positive note, the fiber sector is expected to contribute about $50 million in positive effects. Overall, at the beginning of the year, we find ourselves with many variables to consider.

Mark, before you ask your next question, I want to emphasize that Smurfit has always focused on finding the most efficient way to rapidly invest capital for the highest returns. This aligns with the quick wins you mentioned yesterday.

Typically, we identify low-hanging fruits that might not necessarily be very significant amounts, but you do send a message in the organization that if you guys have a good return, come up, and that will be fast tracked in the system. And that message goes around, as you can imagine, pretty fast.

Great. And so actually, just real quick follow-up is just to understand downtime, kind of in the thought process because obviously, that was costly this year. Is that a big component of potential upside, or now are we going to potentially have a lot more potential there in 2027 and beyond because you're still embedding in a fair bit of downtime for '26?

I think it's fair to say, to be seen, Mark. I mean, we clearly proactively manage downtime. You would have seen that in the fourth quarter and our philosophy, and Tony spoke about it very directly there is the reality is you can ignore the reality of building stocks for no purpose and tying up working capital and external warehouses and the additional incremental cost that goes with that. So our preference would be to manage downtime as we see fit in the context of the external market. I'm not going to predict downtime going forward yet. That's not where we are.

I think one of the big opportunities we have is to reduce stocks quite significantly. We certainly didn't want to build them to then start to work on reducing them. If you look at what Saverio is doing and we've done in Latin America under Alvaro and now what we're starting to do in North America under Laurent is to really grade optimize our system so that we don't have as many widths. I don't know how many widths have we come down from in Latin America. We've come down from 18 widths down to 3, which creates a little bit more waste in your corrugated plants, but way less working capital needs. But you also have to adjust your working capital at the same time. So that might result in some downtime that we take. In North America, we're only at the start.

The number of options was very high. You might be starting with around 200 different types, and the goal in the first stage is to reduce that to 40 and then further decrease it. The discipline involved is crucial, and we have received tremendous support from all areas of the business, recognizing how this positively enhances overall performance.

Anthony Pettinari from Citi. Tony, you talked about the consumer business adding a lot to the company. And I guess just with that regard and with the La Tuque announcement, can you just talk a little bit more about kind of the current performance of the North American consumer business, maybe expectations for '26 that are embedded in your guide? And then just generally kind of the dynamic between the 3 grades that you produce, market conditions and what it is that you think that really adds to the company for consumer being there?

That's a very big question, Anthony. That will take a long time. Let me start by saying, we have an incredible consumer business here in the United States with, let's say, 80% of them at the very top of their market. And then the other 20% we still have to work with. So we have a very strong footprint. We have very strong potential for profitability and cash generation. We think this is a very good business on the converting side with very good customers. There is a very big lean to across our customer base where serving our customers with both consumer board and with corrugated is a very big positive for them. That translates across the region. We just landed a large contract with a large drinks company, whereby we're going to serve them on both sides, both continents and much more business now in our corrugated business than we had before because of our consumer relationship. That's something that Saverio is leveraging off heavily for the consumer business.

In particular, the suite of tools that Tony indicated in his presentation is a very powerful way to deliver customer value consistently, delivering growth by solving customers' challenges. Grade restructurings in paperboard and rebalancing our long position in the most exposed grades such as SBS is essential. Monday's announcement of the La Tuque PM4 shutdown is a perfect example. We're present in all grades, intend to remain in all grades, but making the system stronger.

I have already seen some significant wins within our SBS business. Strategic investments will cover both conversion, focusing on automation, capabilities and quality. And on paper, focusing on operational excellence, performance packaging and lightweighting, both of which will deliver substantial value. This, of course, is underpinned by significant investments in systems and AI tools that accelerate our progress and make it more sustainable.

Well, thank you, Laurent. And once again, good morning, everybody. I'll now cover EMEA and Asia Pacific. In EMEA and Asia Pacific, we operate as an integrated platform, which is a key competitive advantage in these markets. Our integration starts with the containerboard system covering both recycled and kraftliner, which feeds into our corrugated operation across the region. In parallel, we have now consumer packaging operations in Europe and Asia Pacific, serving a broad range of end markets with differentiated solution and allowing us to have a holistic approach on their packaging needs. In addition, we operate a Bag-in-Box platform that is present both in Europe and in the Americas, giving us scale, innovation capability and cross-regional leverage in this high-value segment. In 2025, the region generated approximately $11 billion of sales and $1.6 billion of adjusted EBITDA with around 36,000 employees across 27 countries and holds the #1 position in corrugated, containerboard and Bag-in-Box with a proven track record of continued outperformance. We believe this level of integration allows us to optimize the system end-to-end, protect and grow margins and respond quickly to customers and market dynamics. We have successfully integrated the consumer packaging business and harmonized in the owner-operator model with P&L ownership, developing cross-selling opportunities across corrugated and consumers where customers are valuing the combined approach between corrugated and consumer while also delivering ahead of target on the synergy program.

Thanks, Saverio, and good morning to everyone. It's really a privilege to be here with you today and have the opportunity to give you a clear data-driven view of why Latin America is not only a strong contributor to Smurfit Westrock, but a region with extraordinary potential for long-term profitable growth. Actually, I firmly believe we are an absolute gem, not only because of our leadership position in the region in market share and footprint, but because we have great assets and because we have great local management that really knows the markets and the countries in which we operate. Let me begin with our competitive advantage. We are the #1 corrugated supplier across the region with leading positions in Brazil, Colombia and Argentina. In the region, we also offer the broadest portfolio of paper packaging and full solutions, which includes consumer packaging, sacks, forestry, recycling and both recycling and virgin-based papers, such as our lightweight and eucalyptus-based papers. We are in a region that has higher margins and many growth opportunities. This combination of regional reach, completely integrated process and a broad portfolio of paper-based solutions is unique to Smurfit Westrock and very difficult to replicate. Let me tell you, the real differentiator in the region now as Smurfit Westrock is that we are fully leveraging the European corrugated tools and practices that have really made us successful and helped us increase our margins. We have an unrivaled footprint, and we have the broadest portfolio in the region, offering paper-based packaging solutions such as corrugated, consumer packaging and sacks, which have allowed us to reach more than 4,500 customers from our 44 facilities in 10 countries, a really, really unrivaled footprint. Our current strength is built on a long track record of disciplined execution and the experience and knowledge of having been in the region for more than 80 years. The example to our success in the last 10 years is we have doubled our adjusted EBITDA. We have expanded the adjusted EBITDA margins by more than 500 basis points, reaching 23% and we delivered steady growth with a 4% CAGR in corrugated. This performance reflects our ability to navigate the economic volatility and strengthens our cost position and invest with discipline. Now let's look forward. We have a clear ambition to grow our adjusted EBITDA with a CAGR of 11%, reaching $800 million by 2030 and increase margins to 28%. We will get there through 4 growth engines. Organic growth and market share expansion. Latin America offers significant opportunities in segments like agribusiness, protein, beverages, consumer goods, and export-driven industries, especially in markets where we are not yet leaders.

Thank you, Alvaro. I want to now talk to you about delivering the path to delivering shareholder value over the medium term and why we believe that this path is both credible and executable. What you'll see through the next few slides is not a change in philosophy, but a continuation and most importantly, an acceleration of a business model that has proven itself over many years now applied across a broader global platform. Over this period, we delivered an adjusted CAGR EBITDA of 6.5%, more than double the peer average. This outperformance isn't the result of any single initiative, but of a disciplined and agile capital allocation strategy, our unique owner-operator culture, and a core philosophy of placing the customer at the center of everything we do. Alongside this, we expanded our adjusted EBITDA margin by over 450 basis points, again, significantly ahead of our industry peers. What this demonstrates is not just growth, but consistent profitable growth through the cycle. Over these years, we believe we cemented our position as the most innovative and sustainable packaging company in the world, and this enabled us to deliver significant value for our customers, supported by our integrated model, a relentless focus on quality and service and an unrivaled portfolio of value-added packaging solutions. With the integration of WestRock now complete, we have the platform, capabilities and leadership team in place to replicate and build on that track record going forward. That sound foundation underpins the medium-term plan we're presenting today. We are setting out specific and actionable financial goals through 2030. By 2030, we aim to deliver approximately $7 billion of adjusted EBITDA and a group adjusted EBITDA margin of approximately 19%. This goal reflects the strength of our global operations, the benefits of our performance-led culture and the earnings quality we're building and maintaining across each of our 3 regions. A key driver of that progress is a significant growth opportunity in North America, which is a significant lever for value creation in the Smurfit Westrock, but it is not the only one. With the operating model now firmly in place and the heavy lifting of integration complete, our teams are empowered, our assets are better aligned, and the actions we've taken already deliver higher margins and higher cash conversion. Over the next 5 years, we aim to generate approximately $14 billion of discretionary free cash flow, reflecting not only the earnings power of the business under conservative top line assumptions, but also the ongoing benefits of our relentless focus on cost control and operational excellence. This level of cash generation provides substantial flexibility to invest in the business, further strengthen the balance sheet, and make significant capital returns to our shareholders. At the same time, we see a clear path to delivering a 700 basis point improvement in return on capital employed, driven by margin expansion, improved asset utilization, operating efficiency gains, and the advantages of a fully globally integrated system. Return on capital employed has long been a hallmark of our performance and culture, and the medium-term opportunity here is significant. Our capital allocation framework is flexible, agile, and returns-focused at its core. We are focused on continuing to strike the right balance between investing in high-return projects and delivering significant capital returns to shareholders, supported by our continuing strong balance sheet. Dividends remain the cornerstone of our capital return strategy. And as part of this, we anticipate returning about $5 billion in dividends over the next 5 years, subject to the necessary Board approvals and depending on a number of economic and other factors. From 2027 onwards, we see an opportunity for a strong free cash flow generation to provide capacity for share buybacks, supporting our confidence in Smurfit Westrock's long-term value and strategy. In summary, this is a plan built on discipline, operational excellence, and growing capital returns.

Well, thank you, Ken. As a significant shareholder in Smurfit WestRock, what I and I hope you expect to see is a plan that is ambitious yet deliverable and a plan that demonstrates a long-term future and a strong foundation to build on. This is what we have presented today. Our competitive strengths include our performance-led culture, owner-operator model with the customer being at the heart of what we are, and our global integrated platform with short lines of communication continually networking. Our product portfolio and global reach is unique and unparalleled and allows us to serve customers. We offer innovation, customer centricity, solving their pain, delivering value and helping them win in their own marketplaces. And we do this against the backdrop of continual improvement in our operations through disciplined capital expenditure, emphasizing cash flow and ensuring that we're adequately rewarded for the capital that we have employed.

George Staphos, BofA. One question, right? You got it. If we look at the progression to $7 billion, $4 billion North America, $2 billion in Europe, $1 billion roughly in South America, can you help us understand how important the evolution of consumer is relative to getting to that target across the segments? Why it seems like you see consumer being married to corrugated makes more sense than what we've seen perhaps past companies have had difficulty getting that effectiveness? And frankly, you've had questions about that when you first put the business together. Why you think it makes sense now?

I look at things quite simply. Can we be a very good business in consumer? And the answer is yes. We have some really fantastic businesses within our consumer portfolio that are very unique, very difficult for any competitors to replicate. And we have some very good mills in the consumer business. What we have to continue to do is improve and adapt over the coming months and years to make all of our system good because there's still work to be done, and you'll know that our CRB bills are not necessarily the best in the world.

On the topic of Latin America and the paper sector, one of our significant advantages is that we now have access to North American paper, which effectively insulates us from paper-related issues. Previously, when we were Smurfit Kappa, we faced shortages. Now, our system is fully integrated with North America, which protects us from any fluctuations or shortages of paper that can occasionally occur in the region.