I'm Mark Mahaney, part of the Internet Equity Research Team here at Evercore. Thrilled to have Dave Wright, the Chief Executive Officer and co-founder of Pattern. So we're going to go through a couple of questions for the next 40 minutes. I apologize for my voice. I gave the commencement address this weekend at one of my alma maters, and I talked about AI, and I all of a sudden had to deal with hecklers for the next 30 minutes.
Yeah, you got some booing.
Yeah, I did, and I had to talk over that. It was my elementary school commencement address, and those kids, they're just, oh.
I was there at the University of Arizona. My daughter graduated from there a few weeks ago, and Eric Schmidt. Oh, you were there for that, okay. Presented, and I was, that was sort of an eye-opening awakening for me because it wasn't just a few kids. It was the general audience, you know, becoming quite a social issue.
That's unfortunate, but it depends. Did Schmidt say, like, AI is going to take all of your jobs? Why did you bother getting to meet?
Well, the unfortunate thing was, I mean, I was super excited to hear from him, and he stood up, and from him standing up, it was boos. And he'd say things like, let me make this point, and the second he tried to say something like that, you know, it was astounding.
Okay. Well, we're not bringing him in, obviously. All right. So, David, let's level set a little bit here. You know, this is, you're one of our top stock picks. And one of the reasons I really enjoy covering small caps is because you have a lot of undiscovered names. And that means there's a lot of inefficiencies usually in a market. It creates a lot of opportunity for, you know, people who want to really dig in, do the work, understand the story. And anyway, I think this is one of those cases with patterns. So just level set us. Why did you start this business? How did you name it? And just give us the two minutes overview on what Pattern's role is.
Sure. Yeah, I wish I would have named it Pattern from the beginning, but I didn't. My idea was iServe. You know, a little i. You know, it was sort of popular at the time. and my background was all on the tech data engineering side. Well, I got started because my cousin started this little girl's headband brand, and I was just reviewing data for her. She was talking about a word I didn't know, which was ROAS. I'd never sold a widget. I didn't really like advertising and salespeople, but, you know, her reported ROAS. I was, you know, evaluating it and others and trying to figure out, okay, what is the right answer on a return on ad spend to know how much a brand should invest? Is there a way we could approach this from a data perspective? So that started it, and then now we have 41 patents. We help brands across 72 plus marketplaces all around the world, and we're essentially this thin layer that sits in between a brand and global marketplace infrastructure that We'll help them with logistics, every aspect of the e-commerce formula, which would be for a brand, the keys to revenue is traffic, getting an eyeball to see your product somewhere, converting it when they're there, availability of that good in that region, and then whatever I mean, that's the formula. So we built our whole tech stack on that. And then along came our, you know, legit CRO and CMO, and they had that chat with me where they're like hey Dave you know the ICER name not so good we have a few ideas one of them was continuum which I quite liked and the other one was pattern and I voted for continuum and they said Dave trust me we're right it should be
pattern and so here we are that's good and then you are trying to solve you're you're trying to you're trying to be an equal we call it one in a box or all in a box ecommerce accelerator accelerator yeah you started off and you still are very heavily focused on amazon and i remember when i um i've heard the shopify pitch for quite some time and i remember there was somebody in the audience here who gave me the first pitch on on pattern and i've been thinking for years you know there's massive marketplaces like that's where the vast majority of sales are going to be and i guess you sort of thought that too and so that's why you're you know your biggest end market right now is Amazon, although it's becoming a little bit smaller. But just, you know, just the light bulb that caused you to say, we need to optimize for Amazon?
Well, it was just where the consumers were. I mean, we don't... Oh, you wanted to be where the consumers were? Yeah, we didn't really care where, you know, like, you know, if you take Amazon and Mercado Libre in Mexico, say, they're about 50-50 for a pattern, we're just a thin layer, you know, we'll represent a brand like a Pandora Jewelry and we don't really care who wins of those two we're just trying to help the brand win which was a paradigm that you know no one else was was doing I also think what's happened is that
there's just on the Amazon marketplace because that's where a lot of consumers are the level of complexity for merchants has risen materially I mean I love some of these statistics the number of fba price points has gone from like almost 80 to 540 storage inbound all of the different price points and programs and offerings have like i don't know gone up 10x in the last four or five years is that something you're helping people solve for just the increasing complexity of the amazon marketplace yeah i mean i don't think an amazon
particularly intends to do it, it's just in the in the process of business maturity and then efficiency you know they'll do things like their regional network you know where they say hey you know when we first started in 2013 we would send all of our goods at least the ones that went to Amazon to one location and and then they would split it across their network which was not nearly as complex. I remember when they came out and said hey we're you need to send to three locations. I was like, what? And they would mandate how many units of each went where. So that meant for us, we had to break down the packaging of a brand, say, that were in boxes of, say, 12. We had to, you know, pull four out of here and four out of here. So for a brand and a seller, that was materially difficult, and I complained endlessly about And now it's, you know, $14 to $18 that a brand needs to send to. For Amazon, it makes sense, right, you know, they're getting it closer to the consumer. For a brand or a seller, it is very costly and highly complex. So you know, for a pattern, right now we do 95% full truckload to all of those locations at an average inbound cost of $0.11. cents for every unit. If that falls off of a full truckload, which for us is 95% of time, so most of it, it's 44 cents our cost. So think if you're a brand, even a big brand, you know, to try to do a weekly inbound and get full truckloads to all their regional nodes, near impossible. So that's just one point of scale where a pattern becomes, you know, not only better at growing but more efficient and maybe even cost savings for them.
Have you become one of the biggest partners, accelerators on the Amazon platform in the
From what I understand, we're the largest and I don't think it's close.
And then talk a little bit about your diversification away from Amazon. I know Coupang's up there, at least you mentioned them on the public calls, TikTok shops, Walmart, what else and how easy is it, just talk about the ease with which you can roll out onto other marketplaces.
Yeah, I mean we are, I don't think we're chasing the diversification I think as much as everyone thinks we are. It shows amazing in our numbers but again we're We're just going where the consumers are. It makes sense. Amazon is quite dominant in the U.S., but the more we penetrate outside the U.S. and just get broader, and it's getting to be a little bit more competitive of a landscape. You know, TikTok Shops is making a great entry into the U.S. and has done pretty phenomenal in Douyin in China. And so we just continue to accelerate across all the platforms. So you know, our non-Amazon growth is 109 percent. outside of Amazon last quarter at least was 101 percent so we continue just to diversify but it's almost more natural than forced we're just going as we mature I think you just continue to see that more and more okay you know when
we started off you started talking about the different value propositions or what you're offering to to merchants and manufacturers you mentioned traffic and conversion availability of product and price when you when you think what do you think is the strongest value proposition that you offer why is what makes you the the must partner for most of the merchants you work with is it all of those equally or is there something in particular you think you solve for them better than others
other things well i mean if you're sitting in a brand seat you know they want profitable growth so what you have to give them as as an accelerator for a pattern is exposure to global markets, just more consumers, and then you have to execute better at a price point they're willing to accept. So that's where scale helps. Imagine if you're a brand and you say, you know, we have many of our brands that are sitting across 30 marketplaces and the technology is tuned for, you know, how do I drive traffic across all of the different variables. If you think just Amazon, you know, you're like, okay, what do I do with Prime Video? Oh, they just introduced sponsored prompts from, you know, they just renamed Rufus to Alexa Shopping, you know, so the... Today? Yeah. But if you're a brand, you're trying to even keep up with, they have some really talented people there and the diversity and complexity is just growing, so to be able to do it at a price point, a pattern can do it. I think a brand when they partner with us is near price neutral, and I, you know, personally believe that a brand could not begin to operate at the same price point, same efficiency that So in a way, it's the whole thing, you know, can I get more traffic, can I convert that traffic, and can I make my goods available in region, you know, I want more same day than I want two day plus, you know all of those things combined just leads to better outcomes for brands at a better price point. As you keep continue to scale does that price point keep going down? Yeah that's the you know that's part of the magic of you know anybody in our type of business is you know it's why we've actually started selling that logistics middle mile layer by itself. You know we will now have more trucks leaving our facilities with non pattern-owned goods than pattern-owned, that crossed a little bit ago. Because then we get better price points for all of our partner brands and we just continue to get that, you know, we track what we call cost to serve, so for every dollar of revenue, we don't make it a public number, but for every dollar of revenue we say how many cents does it cost us to run that machine both in the U.S. and outside the U.S. and those numbers for us have reduced you know 30 40 percent and you know brand still has to figure out how to do that and and and can they I mean will they ever have the scale to you know I don't know if you can run a single brand all over the world
and make money without a partner that 30 to 40 percent reduction roughly is that over a couple of years yeah yeah a number of years okay and then I didn't think about this before but what is the implication doesn't have any meaning at all for your business the launch of Amazon's supply chain services a AC ASCS does that mean anything to you yeah I mean it's interesting it's a lot of
rebranding and repackaging of things that they've had previously but we like the consolidation it allows you to negotiate a price point you know across the ecosystem. Amazon Air has been unavailable for anybody except Amazon until that offering. So there's some interesting points about it, especially for big companies like us or a big brand that can take advantage of more volume pricing. It can be compelling.
That's right. Your pattern summit that you had, and Natalie was there, if you had somebody from ASCS there, I mean this is, so this is, I mean this is
a tailwind to your business? I mean there's, anytime you know you introduce a level of complexity like, you know there's quite a few other marketplaces that are chasing similar offerings, the harder it is for a brand to wade through it and the more difficult it is to get to a level of volume where you can get a price point that they can, you know, they're comfortable with, all of those things. And I will say, you know, even the surface area of, you know, even a Gentic has thrown a level of complexity in for a brand that is an absolute must to manage, but it's a surface area because you can't stop doing anything you used to do before. Like all of the ways consumer buys a good still exist, and now we have an entire new
surface area on both of those things okay um one way or another i was going to somehow figure out how to bring up agentic commerce and ai so what is that what is the how do you think about uh ai for your business and my guess is you're going to respond that you know we've been deploying ai and machine learning for a decade um so we're kind of there but is there something else uh that you think investors should know about what agentic commerce you know means for your business well
you know what's funny on the ai front is we actually got our first patent we submitted it you know it was a machine learning patent which fell into the ai umbrella back then we never wanted to call it ai because it was sort of frowned on um and now it's you know the buzzword for everything but you know as those models have matured I mean it was really the transformer model that changed our business entirely we just considered that pure luck because it's what we're naturally inclined to be good at and then you know the technology happened to arrive on the scene that if you think companies and businesses that are content centric where small changes in content messaging can move millions or billions of dollars one way or the other other. Ecom, I think people are not quite thinking the impact that, you know, LLMs will have on Ecom. Now, to be fair, you know, I was very bullish that, you know, within months, you know, people are going to be shopping, you know, via chat inside a conversation, right? And I remember our first call with all the analysts like nine of the ten questions were like agentic commerce. Now everyone's like well I guess we'll see how that evolved. So that has evolved a little slower than I thought but the the mechanics of how a consumer finds products is super material still for brands and the level of transparency that they're seeing in product quality, customer service, say do factor on logistics you know when you said it was going to be there was it there those metrics I think will be held and tracked in memory and brands aren't quite realizing the the brands that have focused on the consumer high quality the upside for them I believe over the next five years will be enormous why do you think it hasn't taken off as quickly as you thought I just think that you know OpenAI, you saw them retreat a little bit. Google, you know, UCP is still hanging in there, Gemini, saying, hey, we're going to do it. The problem is it's hard. You know, if you're OpenAI, we wouldn't chat with them about it. And just one of the big problems is, you know, say they serve up, you know, you ask a question like, give me a small blanket that'll fit underneath my seat on an airplane or whatever. For one, you have the semantic intent model where if you don't have enough data to know the dimensions of that blanket, you might just get left out of the conversation entirely, so you have to tune all of those things. But you know, they're good at that, but then if you just say, hey, is this blanket in stock? That's a, I think they thought, well, that's an easy question. But it's not easy, and then someone has to handle the logistics after. So this is where a pattern could get very interesting, is where we're positioning ourselves is a return has to be processed customer service has to happen logistics has to occur and and I think we we're in an era where I think it will go slowly and allow quite a few companies to adapting and position themselves really well and and that's where that's where we're headed okay I want to ask you about two
types of diversification first talk about how we should think about your diversification away from Amazon nothing wrong with being on Amazon but diversification is a good thing so i think you mentioned your off amazon sales are growing whatever 100 plus or something year over year yeah 119 119. are there enough new budding partnerships tick tock shops walmart coupang whatever mercato libre that we that we should expect you know and i assume amazon's can continue to grow at a high pace but should we expect continued diversification away from amazon over the next three to five years
probably the the best way to think about it I think is just GMV where is GMV around the world you know one of the big you know if you think just China which owns a really significant portion of digital economy Amazon is largely if not entirely irrelevant there so any diversification into China which is a strong push for us will end up you know but but if Amazon were in China we would gladly embrace it and and and continue to you know double down there you know Amazon is doing a good job in Europe but there's quite a few players there that create some you know that create some I guess diversification opportunity and you know if you look worldwide Amazon is a significant chunk of that world so we'll continue we love you know partnering with Amazon but I think you will see continued diversification simply because that's
where the consumers are is there an opportunity for you in China itself Oh yeah. And how do you do that? Who are you working with to get there?
Oh, we have probably 200 plus people there. So we have three offices there. We've been there for many, many years, probably since 2020-ish, and yeah, very significant marketplace for us. We also have a really interesting concept we call East to West, where we're working with the manufacturers of goods there because they have high quality. So if you think of, you know, in terms of what makes customers happy, high quality, good, lower prices. I think it's frowned upon sometimes. A lot of it is, you know, many of those products, they produce some of the best brands in the world. So, you know, the manufacturers that are there, we estimate, you know, 30-ish percent of the goods sold on Amazon are manufactured in China, probably north of that. And so, as a matter of fact, we had a fun story where I had this, you know, this guy rolled up to pattern and he had a little wagon and he was, you know, had some goods there I didn't want to, you know, talk to him and, you know, somebody who could converse in Mandarin talked to him and he's like, he's doing $3 billion US dollars in sales and he's provider for a lot of the sound, you know, brands that you would recognize and he has his own brand, he wants to see what we could do and I was like, okay, this is very interesting. And so since then we have a team over in China that is working with manufacturers to bring in both the US and other geographies. That's been, you know, some of our larger, you know, deals in the last year or two has been from that effort.
People do IPOs for a variety of different reasons. One reason is to really use it as a bit of a marketing event, so more people, consumers and enterprises get to know about them. Did you find that to be the case? Have you reached a point where you've just gotten a lot more inbounds over the last 12 months, or has it just been nothing wrong with it, or has it just been a steady build over time? Did your accelerator get accelerated by the IPO?
Yeah, yeah, it did. I wasn't sure if it was going to but it was it was material and and I guess that's just becoming becoming known so you know that was positive you know net effect of that IPO it's good to be a public company some advantages to that
thoughtful analyst all that kind of stuff and then diversification away from I think the minerals supplements and and vitamins has been a large category in passed it made sense relatively easy to handle the logistics of talk about the diversification you've had away from the health and wellness beyond that yes
health and wellness well maybe if you don't mind I'll just start with how we got there when we started in 2013 we just happened to land with a few vitamin and mineral supplement companies, essential oils. And I was, you know, as I've said, quite negative on sales and marketing in general. And we started getting to a point where I started saying, I think we might be able to hit a billion dollars in revenue with one sales guy. And so I was like, if the machine works, then people will come. And that happened. You know, so we were successful for some of these brands, and they all have these market share tools. They would watch. They would say, okay, what's that brand doing? They would call us. We got a lot of inbound that way. And it turns out that it was all in health and wellness, because no one in sports and outdoors was watching how we were doing. So we ended up with an outsized number of health and wellness brands because of that When we took our series A, they said, hey, this one sales guy approach, fine, but let's beef up the sales team, which we did. So then we started selling into other categories. We love that category and we continue to sell into it quite well, but our model works with any type of category. It's irrelevant as to the type. We just happen to start there.
Okay. But you've been able to, are there particular things that make sense? I think, are there particular extensions that have really proven that point? you know like yes but you should see how well we've done in this category that isn't health and wellness like if you were talking about the most successful verticals that aren't health and wellness on your platform what would they
be yeah I think you know the the do-it-yourself which you know more in the tools category is growing triple digit beauty is growing triple digit so they're growing faster than that you know core health and wellness category simply because they're on a smaller base but I said many times I even said at a beauty conference I'm like it doesn't matter if it's lipstick or a shovel from a math perspective and I got feedback after that from some of the attendees of the beauty conference maybe that you know maybe we don't use that analogy at the beauty conference but but from a math perspective that is it's truly the case so it's just a matter of time until we continue to expand out in those
categories one of the more impressive numbers this is a past number I want to ask a long-term question but it's this 127 percent net revenue retention that you had in the in the March quarter that's a record high and I think it's well above some of that long-term targets that some people have been leading the street to think about I don't know is there anything that you don't that you think is unsustainable about that kind of level of net revenue
retention? I mean, yeah. I just think, you know, we don't have anything particular to say that that's unsustainable, but if you just think about the dynamics of digital, global digital shopping is growing, it depends on the source, say seven to ten percent, right? If we're taking our existing brands and growing them, you know, and that includes any brand that happens to leave our platform and go somewhere else, is in that net revenue retention number. So to sustain 127 is almost three times the growth of digital. So what we're guiding is, you know is we we would be pretty happy at a 115 number now we're even more happy at 127 but we think that a 115 is a is really a phenomenal outcome given those dynamics but you know we continue to innovate on the technology side our partners continue to stay with us the machine continues to work and we continue to produce results that are you know amazing but uh but if you think about it in those terms i think that you know 115 is the number we would be pretty happy with long term let me ask you
two or three last questions and then if anybody wants to ask a question um social commerce is there something different about social uh like places like tick tock shops is there something different about those platforms in terms of what you can provide or is it you know social smosh it's you know it's pretty much the same yeah i guess you know truly i guess you just don't
underestimate the the power of this on the social side we met with um an executive from tiktok shops and he essentially said hey in china we expect to be the largest marketplace place, I say 2027, and they've made great strides that way, they've passed, you know, in terms of total GMV, some very big players. And I essentially said, but in the US, you know, Amazon's logistics mode, I'm not sure you're going to be able to play here. And he says, if I can get people to spend time on my platform, I can sell to them. And he's like, and I've proven it. And I think you're watching them prove it again. So, then you start, you know, dissecting that world and you say, okay, what causes success and failure there? And you can see a lot of brands. So we've essentially, you know, you can dissect it in the content. So we'll take a piece of content. We have a product we call Trend Visions on our technology side, and we'll take a piece of content which would be video, and there's thousands upon thousands of them. We're doing three or four thousand, you know, videos a day that we put on the platform. So it gives us a great testing space, but you can break them down. You can essentially say, what happens in the first three seconds that makes Mark watch it versus he didn't continue watching the other nine? So we call that the hook archetype. We log it. Like, okay, for this brand consumer, was it a question? You know, the question archetype is a powerful one. Did they make a bold statement? What was it? You know, so we'll log that. And then we'll start looking at the content archetype and what, you know, the discussion was. Was it more technical in nature? So, we'll build what we call a recipe based on other success for a brand that is a like brand, and then we'll produce that for a given brand. So, data can drive, you know, being able to take all of that data and analyze it to then create and tell a creator, hey, you don't have to do it this way, But here are some things we've seen in the data, and it provides a very positive result. I think it's resulted in us. We were named the TikTok Shop Strategic Partner of the Year. We've had great success there, and they've been a phenomenal partner. So I think you'll continue to see data and technology influence social more than what you might expect.
Actually, you spurred a side question, and we talked about AI a little bit earlier. I would assume, is there any metrics you've disclosed about how your productivity has improved because of AI, generative AI, just up the last year or two?
Well, we don't disclose them. That would be found in our cost-to-serve numbers that, you know, I had indicated earlier, drastically better.
Okay, good enough. And then two last questions. There's this long-term opportunity I think you have sort of building out a SaaS business. there's some tools out there like destiny content brief and portal so talk about these maybe talk a little bit about those those as standalone products perhaps and the long-term potential SAS opportunity well and we've ruled all
those tools you know our last conference we released what we call pie pattern intelligence layer which essentially takes you know the content brief destiny a lot of that ad tech and rolls it into a common interface for a brand that is both natural language and then we push certain metrics, dashboards, you know, essentially an artifact to them that they can either tune or view. And then if they want to change a piece of content, they can see all the data behind it. They can say, hey, can you change this for me on that marketplace, that one and the other? And it will kick off, you know, a sensor actor framework behind the scenes. We will try to execute it via API. If it fails, we'll drop it to an Asana queue, we'll go to a team in India. They will execute it or even in the US and drop it back onto a queue. So essentially, it's a model where with natural language, you can both consume data about your brand and then ask for actions to take place. You don't have to ask for all of them because it's a sensor so it will say, hey, if this falls out of two standard deviations, then we do this action. So that is a comprehensive solution that I think, as a standalone offering, is quite interesting and we're getting some good interest there. I guess we'll keep everyone updated as to what we decide to do there, but you've seen our – the only way I guess you can probably look at that is we have a line item in our financials that is called SAS Logistics and Other. That grew 173% last quarter, and that's where you would watch that growth. Now the reason why we don't try to hype that up too much is it was 14 million in the last quarter on 775 million-ish, I think 774, and so we don't want people to get too carried away with it. But to your point, we're building a lot of these things. people ask for them regularly to be a standalone offering and so we are responding to it and you can you'll be able to just find it in that line item
there okay I'll ask one last question and but he can ask a question or Natalie if you want to jump in with the question you had an unusual risk factor in your S1 I haven't seen it too often I call it the work wife risk and now I have no idea why you had that in there I have never had a disagreement with my wife I have always said you're right, I've always said yes, but some reason you must have some real controversy in the household because you had to list that as a risk factor. What's it like you know we're having work co-founding with your wife
and working with your wife? Well she's amazing in every way so you know anyone who spent any number of hours with us you know we were speculating, I bet you at Pattern, I don't know if, I mean they're, I admit you that the percent is close to zero who has ever seen us have like what you would call a tense discussion. We just tend to work together super well but she is brilliant and when we started the company we actually weren't married so it was about three years in I said hey you know want to go to dinner and that caused her to pause because we went to lunch all the time, but as soon as you ask a co-worker to dinner, they're like, what's going on here? You told HR. Yeah. So, you know, and then we dated for a couple of years and now we do all of the nerdy things we did. We just do them together. We actually have put about 6,000 hours together competing on this video game you call Civilization She has a slight edge on me. I mean she is brilliant and a phenomenal partner so you know I guess you know they force us put that risk factor in we don't consider it one Natalie do you want to
ask a question yeah I mean you can you somehow rephrase that word yeah yeah so
so the question was say in a typical SEO world you might get say 20 or more you know pages of search results versus if you ask a similar question on to a generative model, they might surface one or two options and it's why my comment earlier on if you are genuinely good quality brand that does what you say you're going to do, treats customers well, product quality, reviews, experiences that you've been generating for years are now more visible than ever. So I think you'll see brands that are high quality win an outsized amount for a long time. So what we're doing to help brands understand this is we'll take keywords or keyword phrases for marketplaces, and we'll build them into what we call a family. So you might have a family of keywords that say is like creatine for women, and then there would be a number of keywords underneath there, and maybe thousands. So, we'll pull those together and we'll say, okay, you're performing really well in that family on the marketplaces, and then we'll take and turn those into questions and send them to the models, you know, at different LLMs. And then we'll score you on your visibility and reach and sentiment on the models. And we'll say, okay, we believe you could perform here because you've historically performed here across say marketplaces, which have the best data on the planet, but yet you're underperforming or overperforming over here. And then we'll start understanding why. A lot of it has to do with inadequate content and in many cases if you have a product problem we'll identify it and you have to fix it, you know. So it's quite, you know, an undertaking but the brands that are willing to do it with us will have, I think, immense success there. Well I think it's too early to say because those models aren't particularly well built yet, but I'm quite bullish that it will leave a space to compete for a pattern that could be pretty interesting and powerful if, you know, where we're focused, I believe there will be a concept of a buyer's agent for you that you will have a lot of information about what you like, what you don't like, what you care about, and of course you will feed it to say, hey I need this to show up by tomorrow morning, you know, some of those things specific to the product. And then there will be a concept of a service agent or a brand agent that might actually over time negotiate with your buying agent even on price, on delivery, on a lot of those things, but the data that on your performance will be at that service or brand agent level. So if history, if you have done what you said you're going to do repeatedly, but you won't be able to get away from, you know, negative results, if you treat customers badly and that is well known, or if you say you're going to deliver in a day but it's usually a day and a half, all of those things will be tracked at an agent level. And so Pattern is positioning ourselves right now on an attempt at almost perfection so we're in a board meeting our last board meeting and we're measuring our customer service response and so in the board meeting i'm like let's see you know and it was about 15 seconds so we are just obsessing on how can if it's a transparent world how can we represent brands in a near perfect way so that over time that data will amass where a brand that we represent gets chosen in that ecosystem. I think there's a lot of opportunity there for both Pattern and
brands. Okay, I think we're at the end of our time. David Wright, CEO of Pattern. Thank you very much David. Thank you.