Union Pacific Corp (UNP) September 2026 Conference Transcript

So good news.

I found Mr. Jim Benno. Pardon me? I said I found you.

You're working the room. That's pretty amazing.

Great. So let's keep the transport content going. I'm very happy to welcome back to Laguna Union Pacific Railroad. CEO Jim Benno. Welcome back, sir. And CFO Jennifer Heyman. Thanks so much. Tons going on. I know we have some slides out and there are QR codes. on your desks for you to access the slides. But, Jim, I don't know if you want to start with some opening comments and maybe walk through what's in them.

Yeah, Ravi, listen, thank you very much and good morning, and I've had a chance to say hi and good morning to a number of you. I would have rather done that than this, okay, and we could talk personally, but that's okay. Ravi, thanks for inviting me. What a wonderful place. I had the team, Diana and Jennifer, out for a run-walk this morning, and I got them to drop down and give me 10 push-ups. I was down there with them. I don't think they'll ever do it with me again. So we went down to the beach, went for a walk. Diana was saying, that's a pretty good pace. And then I said, let's drop down and do 10. And we did 10. And then coming back up, we ran up a piece of the hill. And then let's drop down and do five. So that's it, Robbie. You better move the conference. They will come with me. I'm glad I did not run into you at 6.30 a.m. today.

That was our morning. That's how we're off to a start at UP.

I love it. That's the way we should be. push the heck out of yourself and see what the heck you can do to win I'm not here to begin second place and I made sure I beat the girls up to the top of the head and I would have tripped one of them if I thought one of them was going to beat me so listen Robbie cautionary information, typical we don't want to make forward looking statements if you need some more detail please give us a call go online and there's a whole boilerplate now that's a freaking big page long go read it and figure out because we don't want to do anything wrong, right, Jennifer?

Absolutely.

Let's talk a little bit about how we're doing in this quarter. Car loads are up around 5% this quarter, and it's a mix, which is nice. It's not just intermodal and what's happening with fuel prices and everything else. Actually, our industrial month-to-date, and I'm giving you a number that is not public, but it will be public now, is 5.2%. So it's nice to see a cross-section business, how we're moving it. And bottom line, I could sit here and talk about the metrics completely, but I'm sure all of you guys know what I look at and what's real important. Overall, the metrics at the start of this quarter were a little lower than last year because of incidents and things that we had happened impacting the railroad. Fundamentally, it wasn't what we were doing, and it's recovered nicely. So we're in the mid-230s again in car velocity, the dwell under 20 hours. So we're handling the increase in business without degrading our service product or degrading how we move. So I'm very happy with that. And, you know, listen, we keep on talking operating ratio, and some people misunderstand me when I talk about operating ratio. Absolutely, you want to have the best operating ratio that your railroad can deliver because of revenue, the type of revenue, and the cost structure that you have. And I think we figured out a pretty good model to get to be the best in the industry. And I think something like 300 or 400 basis points better than our next competitor. And we like that. It gives us a different starting place when we're looking at how we bring business on. And that's real important to us. We don't lose sight of that. And we'll continue to do everything we can to be able to keep it at the right place. And I've said this a thousand times. If you concentrate on a number, then you miss business or you make decisions that are bad for the long term. I'm not the CEO of, they didn't hire me as the CEO of operating ratio. They hired me as the CEO of Union Pacific, and that's what I do. Now, we're going to be the best. We want to stay at the top. We want to win, and it's all about how much business we can bring on that's fundamentally strong business for our company. And I like where we are. Jennifer, any more sort of details?

No, I mean, I think you've hit really some of the high points, particularly around the volume side. Only things I'll add is when you look at what's really the driver of the growth, great to see that industrial business, and that's been pretty broad-based across many of the segments within industrial. You've got bulk that's down about 1%. It's pretty similar to what we saw in the second quarter where the low natural gas prices continue to impact the coal demand, but we're seeing very strong demand on the grain side of the world. We look for that to continue. We're getting into the harvest season in the Midwest, and it looks to be a pretty decent harvest in our served territory again, so that's good, and that should give us some sustainability on the grain side. And then just going back to the intermodal piece, that really is the biggest driver of our growth here in the quarter, And so that does have a mixed impact that we just need to remind folks of because that domestic intermodal piece, good business, we love the business, and we're probably looking at what's going to be our fifth consecutive quarter of records in terms of looking at it year over year. So even before the cycle started to change, our service product and the way that we were going after and winning and developing business in that market has been shining through. But that will have a little bit of an impact on the mix. Jim's comments on the operations are spot on. We're handling it well. Our strategy with the surge resources is definitely helping us. And so that's definitely to our benefit. We see strong core results with that. The only, I'll say, fly in the ointment is fuel. And I'm sure everybody's talking to you about fuel, Ravi. You know, back in July, we thought we were maybe going to get a little bit of a reprieve. And since then, it's ticked up pretty substantially. So we're probably going to average, I'd say, around $4.25 or so for the quarter, the third quarter. but I have to say right now we're paying closer to $520, $530 a gallon. So it's come up pretty substantially, and obviously that has some short-term impact on our operating ratio. But again, the core business, the core fundamentals of what we do, safety, service, operating excellence, we're hitting on all cylinders there. Yeah, you bet.

And as Robby, I could go on and fill this whole 27 minutes. They aren't here to listen to me. They're here to hear from me. But you know what? I'll leave it to you. I like where we are and the way we go. All yours. Looking forward to the question.

Great. Perfect. So maybe let's start with some of the macro and demand picture, and we'll come to M&A, obviously, in a second. But actually, Jennifer, maybe we can just piggyback off your fuel comments here. How do we think about that OR walk, 2Q to 3Q to 4Q, based on what you laid out, both in terms of the fuel lag that you guys have on the recovery side, but also potentially any tailwinds you might be seeing on incremental truck conversions Yeah, so on the last part of your question, it certainly is benefiting us from just highlighting that stark difference in terms of the fuel efficiency between truck and rail.

And we believe that is starting to drive some conversions to the network over and above what maybe some of the cyclical changes are driving. So I do think that's a plus for us. In terms of the OR impact, you know, I think we had about 120 basis point impact to our OR in the second quarter with fuel prices coming up to where they're at now. Probably fair to say that it's going to be that big of an impact or bigger. But, again, that's why I point back to the core. Core is very strong in continuing to see improvement.

Well, Rodney, real quick. Fundamentally, a higher fuel price is never good for the economy in the long run. and that's what you have to worry about and that's what you have to be prepared for and that's what we have to do. Now, we haven't seen it so far. It's truly amazing with the products that we're moving other than some specific areas that you know are going to be reactive quicker that we've seen a slowdown. So it's interesting. It helps us bring more business in. We sure don't want to damage and have the economy damaged by having high fuel prices and slowing some things down. But so far, we haven't seen it.

But going back to Jennifer's comments of the core being really strong here. Obviously, you're seeing mid-single-legit volume growth. You raised the guidance last quarter. Is it fair to say that we are now out of the freight recession and kind of we have visibility of what's coming forward? Or to Jim's point, kind of is that still kind of a little bit of a risk?

I mean, it feels good right now. I mean, I think our customers are pretty bullish right now. When you look at order books, when you look at inventories, I think those point to some sustainability here in the demand. And so we feel good about that other than watching is there the possibility for some demand destruction with the high fuel.

And just on domestic intermodal itself, obviously the big theme of the conference has been the capacity tightness on the trucking side. Has that resonated with your customers, and is that driving like a long-term pipeline of volumes coming your way, or does it feel like shippers are being a little more opportunistic just given how much, I mean, how suddenly this is going to crept upon them?

Because the bottom line is it's a little bit of both. Okay, like let's get serious here is if they thought that they could have a better product and move it quicker some other way, they'd leave us real quick a certain percentage that just came on. That's life. But the best way for us to keep them, high-service product, show them that we can deliver it, and the final receiver of the product, the true decision-maker, is real important, the shipper or the receiver, not the trucking company. Okay? Got it.

And just on the international, intermodal side, obviously there's a lot of talk on the price gap now between the East and the West.

How does that kind of benefit you guys, and kind of what is the – again, does it also seem transitory, or do you think there's more structural gains to be had there? you know i think uh we'll see i mean it seems like there's different headwinds and tailwinds that tend to make that freight shift back and forth between the two coasts and i think that shows kind of going back to jim's point about the optionality of these firms they're going to look for their best option best transit time best overall price to delivery but right now i do think with some of the low water levels in the panama canal some of the other things that are going on in the world we are seeing a little benefit our international intermodal volumes are up a little bit here in the quarter, so that's a positive for us.

You can sit there, if you're in my job or Jennifer's job, and worry about things that you don't control. Or you do look at things that you can control. So the customers that are buying internationally and when they look at their supply chain, if it's better for them to go to the east, they're going to go to the east. If it's better for them to go to the Gulf, it's go to the Gulf. If it's better for them to go. So our job to partner with, I'm here in the West Coast with Long Beach, and we have a great relationship, and LA, who is supportive of our merger because they see the benefit, then we work, and that's why we're doing the things we're doing to be faster, more consistent, so that when people make decisions, because it's a cost thing it's a cost and service thing right yep listen i have i get different service when i go to mcdonald's and no i didn't take my wife some people remember me saying that they're about was going to take my burger right for our anniversary to mcdonald's i did take her to a nice steakhouse in omaha but bottom line is i go there for speed quality and that's what i get but when i go to one of those $80 steakhouses for a, can you believe it, for a steak, $80. But at the end of the day, I expect something different. And if it's not there, I'm going to go back and get an $8 Big Mac. Sure. Okay? I don't think so, but... So I'm not real worried about the East Coast, West Coast, but that's why we want to merge. Yeah. We're going to give people more optionality with a single line that will take you across the country. Looking forward to it.

Yep. I'll come to the merger in just a second. But speaking about $80 stakes and pricing here, obviously what's happening in the truck market kind of gives you a pretty nice opportunity for intermodal pricing as well. You guys said that you think it'll be a bigger opportunity kind of next bid season for you guys. Can I just talk about how you see that rolling through mechanically kind of cadence over the next few quarters?

Jennifer, why don't you take them through sort of the three different models that we have, right? Some of it is priced in on long-term contracts, so away you go.

So I think the part you were just referring to, Ravi, is some of those longer-term contracts, which we put some flexibility into the pricing, which has served us well, because at the time we won some of those contracts, you started to see the market tail off. So what you're seeing now certainly is the volume come from those contracts, but the pricing will lag and it will trail a little bit. Then you also have the business that moves on more of a spot basis. That business season is in more the springtime of the year, And so since spring of 26, prices have continued to run up. So assuming they stay at these levels or continue to go higher, we would expect a stronger bid season. So, again, you're going to get the benefit of that more in the back half of 2027. And then the third piece that Jim's talking about is we have our own boxes. So that's the nice thing about our intermodal franchise is we can hit the market in a number of different places. And so with our boxes, we actually have them fully unstacked, out and running for the first time since about 2008, or excuse me, 2018. I went back too far. Dropped a decade. But 2018, so that's a long time. And we've actually gone out and opportunistically picked up a few extra boxes, and we've put some surcharges on there as well to reflect the strong demand that we have for that part of our product. So we're hitting on all of those cylinders, and it's being supported by the service product. So that's where we feel good.

You said the S word. So given what's happening to fuel, is there an opportunity to maybe use surcharges and accessorials to maybe get kind of pricing a little bit quicker, especially given how extraordinary what's happening with fuel is?

I mean, our fuel surcharges are programmatic. They're set up either through contracts with our customers or through our tariffs. And so they've been in that same situation for a very, very long time. They're just kind of set it and forget it. What I was referring to was some of the peak season insure surcharges that are lane-specific, market-specific, and intermodal to address some of the capacity.

Got it. And on peak itself, we've heard from a few trucking companies so far that they're looking forward to a very, very robust peak. Do you guys have a sense of what that's looking like just yet, or is it a little too soon?

I don't know. We think that volume is not going to go up a whole bunch in those segments that are usually driven by peak. But I'm hoping that everybody else is right and not our experts. Got it.

But there are pretty decent levels right now. I mean, that's the nice point.

Yeah, it's not negative, but I don't see another substantial double-digit increase.

I think a big message from you guys for the last two or three years during the downturn has been, hey, we have the capacity for when the volumes do come back. You have seen a pretty nice improvement in volumes already kind of off the bottom here in the last couple of years. So where are you now on excess capacity, on the service levels that you can maintain? At what point do you think you'll have to bring some resources back?

Ravi, it's pretty simple. Okay, what we did was starting in 2019 is we looked at the railroad in a completely different manner of what was possible. We invested hundreds of millions of dollars in making our railroad to be able to handle trains of different lengths in different corridors. And as we publicly have said lots, is we operate with more business than we did in 2019 with 24% less trains. Some people think that's a number you can just slap on the wall and it was easy. That wasn't easy. But that's capacity that we have excess. Sure. So if we're going to run seven new lanes in the merger, my God, we don't get back to where we were even in 2019. So let alone the business that we have now. So we're very comfortable that piece. And the other two areas that you always have to be careful with is locomotives. The reason is, is you just can't can't get them if you need them in a short period of time. Otherwise, we wouldn't. The buffer would be zero. We just go down to the corner place and buy a locomotive. But nobody has them just sitting there for us. and people. So I'm very comfortable the capacity-wise, few little pinch-point areas that we'll continue to invest in. On the intermodal side, Jennifer, we spent, I think, something like a billion two in the last eight or nine years to increase our capacity, the number of lifts we put in there, on purpose to be able to handle these changes that we think that we can draw to our railroad as we move ahead. So, you know, that's what we've done is tried to touch every piece of our business to give ourselves the capacity to not run up against it. And you'll see that if you run up against it, you just slow down. The railroad slows down, which is not good.

Just to follow up from that topic, very close to your heart, you mentioned it several times already today, which is service levels. How comfortable are you with kind of where you are with service? What technology investments do you have to make to kind of push that to a new level? And are you confident that will sustain even when these volumes come back?

Listen, let's just tag team this. We've invested on technology from gate technology, technology so truckers can come in seamlessly. They don't even have to stop. They slow down to come in and out of our terminals. We have the way we switch boxcars at their terminals. We've invested in technology that allows them to do more. So we're handling switch number of cars per hour probably 20% better than we were before. We continue to invest. We have taken all our main systems and replaced them with the latest in the last three or four years, whether it's the dispatch system, whether it's our fundamental net control. The best part about net control was it was a little scary thing, and I hope that Lance had done it when he was the CEO, but he sort of left that for me and kept it building, and they came to see me and said, we're going to shut down our main system that runs everything off of it, payroll, cars, everything. And I said to him, well, what's our backup? If that doesn't work or we have a glitch, what do we do? He says, you can't do anything because you can't meld the two. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of real car movements and everything else, and we did it over a weekend, and I give Rahul and his entire team accolades. So we're ready to do what we have to do moving forward. So I'm very comfortable where we are. Jennifer, anything to add, or did I cover it?

You covered a lot of it. I mean, but we are continuing to develop both within our terminal systems, our terminal command center that's going to help prompt decisions originally to some of the managers in terms of how do they want to bring the trains into the yard, how do they want to set up the switch plans to make sure that the cars are making the next connection. But ultimately, you know, you look forward. instead of just prompting the terminal manager, it's going to go ahead and make those decisions and send those instructions to the crew automatically. So there's a lot ahead of us there that we can do to continue to get more productive and safer.

The most exciting thing that we are working on, and we're pretty close, is a dynamic operating plan. It takes us a long time to change the operating plan against what happens with the business because you have so many things you have to worry about, assets, people, commitments, service plans, everything else but i'm telling you we are very close i'd like it so that uh the day after tomorrow we could have a new plan that fulfills what we have to do but able to be able to run assets better and cheaper size of trains and everything else and we're getting there i'm not happy with rahul on this one and hopefully he's listening in like i expected him to give it to me six months ago, and he thinks it's difficult. I don't know. It's pretty simple from where I sit. He just needs to get going on it.

I should take him for a run early in the morning.

No, he's too fast. He's a marathoner. I would have to trip him to beat him, for sure. He is fast.

Never mind. I have a few more questions on financials and some thematic topics. We'll come back to that in the end. Maybe let's talk about the merger now. First of all, congratulations to the STB. Obviously, has removed the proceedings from AMAN's resumed consideration of the merger and merit to accept the applications. How do you view this latest milestone? How should investors think of it? And give us a sense of what do you think the timeline and the next steps are from here.

Well, listen, we are very, very happy to cross that threshold because once the STB STB on May 28th accepted the merger application then the clock starts. So this next piece is the merits and the parties that have an issue with what we're doing get the put in, but they have to put in their detail. They have to tell the STB and make it public what it is that they can't just speak. You know, it's like some railroads are out there saying that we end up with 50% of the That's just a lie. It just is a lie. Burlington Northern Santa Fe, owned by Berkshire, big company, they have more gross ton miles than us. So we're number two on gross ton miles. Yes, our revenue is more. You'll have to ask them why. That's up to them, not up to me, okay? And our operating metrics are better, everything else, but bottom line, that's where we are. And CSX and Norfolk Southern are about the same. So if you put number 2 and 3 or 2 and 4 together, you don't get the 50%. And somebody forgot that there's two Canadian railroads that actually operate in the U.S. So you add them in there, Canadian National and Canadian Pacific, and we end up at 40. So the reason I'm telling you this story is they can't go about telling the STB that we get the 50 without proving their math. And I don't know what math people are taking, but it's just wrong. I even heard it yesterday at IANA, like son of a gun. So the good part about it is I love where we are without being too snarky. I apologize if I woke up a little snarky this morning. But bottom line is I like where we are in the process. It's taken us way too long to get here. But if anybody's worked with government regulators, it takes them a while to get through to the right place you want them. But I'm going to look at it from their side. I think they're being very, very cautious in making sure that they do the right thing as they go through the process. I think the chair and both the members, all three members, sorry, are smart and they'll make the right decision because they see the benefit for America and the benefit for the shippers and benefit for America to win against worldwide competition. So I love it where we are. And we have a timeline now called May 28th, next year. And then they get 30 days to give us a decision. Now, again, this is Jim Benna. I'm hoping they make the decision in two days. So on the 1st of June, we have an answer. But I bet you any money they don't take two days, probably. We shall see.

Jennifer, anything you want to add on that?

I think I covered it off.

I think you covered it off.

But, Jim, you guys have not been sitting still waiting for them. At the same time, you offered a number of concessions already. You obviously had this agreement with Canadian National. Can you just talk about the thought process there, kind of why you did that, and kind of what benefits do you think it will give you to the process?

Well, listen, you can go study history all you want, all the way back on mergers and anything else. And you need to deal with concentration of railroad against customers. And that's what we had. When the merger gets consummated, we would end up with three rail tracks between our two that we have today, plus we would take over the Norfolk Southerner one. So we needed to do something with that. You can't have that. So either we make a deal with somebody, and I give Canadian National and Tracy and the whole team there a lot of credit. They could see the value of what they do. They're going to be able to move intermodal from Canada into there if they want to Kansas City. And I think it's wonderful. It's competition. And they might take a little business away from us. Now, they better be good or we're going to try to keep it, right? But at the end of the day, I love that. And with that, we started talking about the terminal issues, whether it's the TRRA. and the STB came back twice and asked us on the TRA, even though we said, listen, we don't want to control it. And what people miss, there's terminal railroads and cooperation agreements within terminals across the U.S. And they are all run with one thing when the railroads own them. It's a non-profit. It's not there to make money. It's there to switch a rail car for the cheapest price going. And that's how we manage it, all of us. But we fixed TRA with this, and we fixed the Kansas City. So it's good for CN. It expands their reach. So we have to fix that. If you look at our network now, it's a bolt-on. So would I make a deal with another railroad? Absolutely. But it would have to be a win-win for Union Pacific and for them, and that they could see what the benefit is. The idea to give up tracks of your railroad for no reason at all just goes against the fundamental principle of how business should work. But on top of that, this is what it would do. If we allowed X railroad to run on our railroad for 800 miles, we would charge them a per car mile charge that actually would make it more expensive for them to get to that destination i've thought about just about agreeing because guess what we would just reset the price higher for us sure okay that doesn't make a particle of sense in business in business it should be who can get the best and what the market allows you to do so that's why i'm want to have a hard time making a deal with anybody else. But if it's there, one piece of the deal that's really interesting, Robbie, is we gave Canadian National access from Canada to Mexico through Memphis. Man, I can hardly wait. We win by them growing Canadian business to Mexico. Got to love the competition we just added to Canada against the Canadian Pacific.

Right.

Love it. I didn't get a phone call thanking me about that was a great deal for you, Jim, and bad for CN.

We shall see how this plays out. Jim, can you give us the latest insight into the conversations you're having with various stakeholders here, folks who called you in support of the deal, folks who called you with concerns, what's the latest update on there?

You bet. So we have over 2,000 groups or individuals that are positive on the merger. Letters of support. We have over 500 customers. And just a couple of days ago, the governor from South Carolina sent a letter in. And we have letters continuing to come in. So the support is the, and it's the most support that anybody's had on a merger. So we're very happy. And it's across state lines all over the place. And we have some detractors that have said that they put in. But at the end of the day, the positive is much stronger than the negative because they see the benefit of being able to operate through. So we're continuing. I wrote a letter to the top 50 customers, CEOs, myself and said, listen, if there's anything that you want to talk to me that you don't understand, this is my personal phone number, this is me, give me a call. And a couple of them have. And we've actually had great conversations, and we'll probably get a couple of letters of support from them. And some of the rest of them, you know, I haven't heard from them, and that means they must support me. And I got it, it's not quite. But at the end of the day, communicate with our customers, because that's real important. It's hard to communicate against associations. They don't pay anything. So it's pretty hard to have a proper discussion. And plus, I can't tell them exactly what we're doing with some of our customers because they're an association. So I like it. Other stakeholders, son of a gun, I'm telling you, if there's one thing I really screwed up on, I did not know I was going to have to make so many trips to different government offices somewhere in this country over this, but I've done lots of myself, Jennifer, and the entire team to make sure the story is straight. And they get it. As soon as you tell them, how'd you like an airline industry that never went across the country? And how'd you like an interstate system where when 80 gets to the Mississippi River, there's no road bridge across. You have to barge it across the cars over to the other side so you can get to the other part of the country. They get it as soon as you tell them that. So I love it. So a lot of communication.

Good analogy there. Any questions in the room? Madison, can you go first?

I love it. Right up here. Oh, there is a question? I thought I was going to get off the stage two minutes and 47. No, sir. I'm letting you off.

Hi, guys. Thanks for the question. Mine's actually on autonomous trucking. I was wondering what your view is on it more broadly. Do you see it as a competitive risk or opportunity for railroads? and as autonomous trucks increasingly become a reality? And if it does come to pass, how can rails close the gap on the value offered to customers?

It's been a big topic of the conversation so far. Listen, this is something that we should always think about in the business that we're in, and I do think about it lots. If you stand still, someone else is going to beat you. You've got to look at what's coming up, and you've got to look forward, okay? We're not into defragmenting, okay, or fragmenting our railroad network to have 48 railroads like we had back in the Second World War, Class Ones. We want to move ahead because our competitors are moving ahead, and that is one of the reasons we've looked at this merger and we think it's so important for the country is the competition is going to get better, and we need to be able to get better and have a chance to win. I've actually ridden in an autonomous truck, and I'm telling you that technology is there on the road system I do everything I can I know for an old guy 68 years old and people might say by the time you get the 68 year old grizzled and you only look at things a certain way if there's technology out there I got my IT guy going to get me a flip phone from Apple because I want to see what that technology does plus I think it's cool but at the end of the day I ride Waymo I ride Teslas that are autonomous. I go trucks. I don't fool around. Aurora, I've been in there a few years ago. And I'm telling you, the technology is there. They're driving right now with somebody in the seat, but hang on. So we need to be able to be smart enough to move ahead. And if we stay the same, we just lose business because they are going to be competitively more efficient than us, and they stretch that mileage of how far they can haul. and if people want more trucks on the road then I guess don't let us do the things that we need to do as a rail industry to move ahead that's what's real important you referenced the transaction in relation to that do you think that's going to be part of the debate hey autonomous trucks are coming it'll help the rails compete better how do you think that will relate to the transaction well listen I know the five key areas that the STB needs to look at public interest is the very first thing and it's pretty hard for them not to look at everything that's coming up. And do you want a railroad that seamlessly can operate between the East Coast and the West Coast without handing off and being, even in the intermodal, you know, 8 to 24 hours faster and less complication, less handling, safer, because every time you touch something, it costs you something, something could happen. Do you want to have a railroad system that allows you to compete against that truck? Or do you want not to? Listen, that's why this merger is going to get approved. There's no question. It's good for the country. It is good for the customer. Single-line railroad costs less, rates are less on a single-line railroad haul today than anybody that has a multiple railroad touch. So that means that we can offer better. now I'm not here telling people expect the 5% rate cut because my job is to represent my company but if we market wise everything else we can do that and still be able to do what we have to so it is Ravi it truly is a great deal for America.

Great and that's a great spot to wrap it up Jim always fun always insightful thank you so much for being here Ravi thank you very much thank you everyone