UWM Holdings Corp Q2 FY2023 Earnings Call

Good morning. My name is Lisa, and I'll be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the UWM Holdings Corporation Second Quarter 2023 Earnings Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speakers’ remarks there will be a question-and-answer session.

Good morning. This is Blake Kolo, Chief Business Officer and Head of Investor Relations. Thank you for joining us and welcome to the Second Quarter 2023 UWM Holdings Corporation Earnings Call. Before we start, I would like to remind everyone that this conference call includes forward-looking statements. For more information about factors that may cause actual results to differ materially from forward-looking statements, please refer to the earnings release that we issued this morning. I will now turn the call over to Mat Ishbia, Chairman and CEO of UWM Holdings Corporation and United Wholesale Mortgage.

Thanks, Blake. Well, I'd like to start by thanking everyone for joining the call. I really appreciate it. We're very excited here at UWM, proud of our team members, proud of our clients and really proud of the amazing quarter we've had at UWM. The market, the data, the numbers we're seeing are all really strong, and we're going to talk more about that soon. But before I get into that, I want to start with one of the overarching themes in our industry, and that's the market. It's been a very difficult mortgage market over the last 18 months. But UWM has demonstrated strength because of the foundation we've built for years and years; we can succeed in all market environments. As I have said, dating back to my initial roadshow when we went public, and every quarterly call since, this quarter is evidenced once again that UWM can succeed in all of these markets. While other companies are exiting the market, losing money, shrinking and laying people off, we are the exact opposite. We are profitable. We are hiring. We are investing in technology, and we are planning to continue to grow. We know the refinance boom, whether it's a long sustained one or a mini refinance boom, is going to come soon. The opportunities are usually in the first three, six months, maybe nine months to really make money from a volume and margin perspective and really grow your business. We are prepared for that now. Scale is the name of the game, and that is why we've been winning, and we're going to continue to win going forward. Our business model succeeds in both up and down markets. This is the ultimate down market, and we are still winning. I can't wait for the big market to come. It's going to come. I don't know when, as I said, but we are prepared at UWM, and that's why we are different than everyone else. Let's get into the quarter's numbers first. We delivered $31.8 billion in overall production, meeting our guidance. We set another new all-time quarterly record for purchase volume, $28 billion. We did $28 billion in purchase, that's more business than anybody else did altogether, just our purchase volume. And we are on pace for an all-time record purchase year here at UWM. Our gain margin was 88 basis points, well within guidance. We made $228.8 million of net income, which is very profitable and more than we made last year in the second quarter when the market was significantly better and stronger. With that being said, some of the net income includes value of MSR moving up, a small amount of it. Just like I spoke last quarter, MSR value moving up and down, it doesn't really play into my business or our mind at all. So maybe we made only about $200 million when you take out MSR adjustment. Just like last quarter, people hit us for it; it doesn't really matter. We are running a profitable, successful business, no matter which way you look at it, and this is a great quarter given the environment. Before turning it over to Andrew, our CFO, I want to touch on a few other highlights. The broker channel continues to gain momentum. In addition to the share growth we've seen in the channel in the past year, we also continue to see loan officers joining the broker channel in big numbers. These things go hand-in-hand in my mind. It's actually a multiplier factor when a loan officer joins the broker channel; it's not like we just get loans one time. We get loans for potentially years to come. So it's a big deal when they make the jump from retail to wholesale. In the second quarter, we tracked thousands more loan officers during the broker channel with more than half of them leaving the retail channel to join the broker channel. I said it before, and I'll say it again, not only is the broker channel the best place for consumers to get our loan, it's also the best place for loan officers to work. In the second quarter, we really enhanced our products as well. We rolled out a 1% down program, which is really helping lower-income borrowers achieve the dream of homeownership, which we feel is very important. We're excited about how that has been going. On the other side of the spectrum, we enhanced our jumbo product significantly to drive more volume there to help more consumers by clarifying programs and helping brokers succeed. We think there's a big opportunity in the jumbo coming soon as well. We already win in the conventional and government loans, and the products help us win brokers, but helping the lower-end and higher-end loan sizes we're focused on as well to really round out what UWM does. We also had the UWM LIVE! event in the second quarter, which was a record event for us with about 6,000 brokers and real estate agents attending. A lot of excitement and energy around the broker channel. We announced two big enhancements: one, the UWM Portal, which helps with technology and efficiency for brokers, and the other one is PA+, which is really preparing brokers for scale. As I said before, a lot of our competitors are laying people off; a lot of people aren't prepared for the next mini boom or big refinance boom when it comes. Brokers are no different. UWM is prepared, and PA+ is a way to help them scale by helping them process and facilitate their loans so they can go out and get new business. So if a broker has to double or triple their business, they'll be ready because of UWM's PA+. We're really excited about both those things. These new products and processes are proof of the never-relax commitment that UWM has to the broker channel and growing at UWM. Now I'm going to turn it over to Andrew for a few more details on our financials.

Thanks, Mat. The momentum from Q1 carried over to Q2 as our production volume increased over the prior year quarter and was 43% higher than Q1 of 2023. Year-to-date, net income turned to a positive $90.2 million, and our operational performance before considering changes in the fair value of MSRs improved in both Q2 and year-to-date compared to 2022. Year-to-date gain margin of 90 basis points is solid and right in the middle of what we continue to guide to in this competitive market. This is also a significant increase from the last half of 2022 when we had our Game On pricing as we have transitioned from this more broad-based pricing strategy to a more targeted initiative. Furthermore, despite being in growth mode from a team member standpoint, expenses continued to moderate in Q2; excluding servicing, interest and other non-operational expenses, total expenses declined approximately 9% year-to-date. Overall, we delivered very solid financial performance in Q2 considering current overall mortgage market conditions. We have previously discussed our plans to opportunistically sell MSRs in 2023 as market conditions warrant to support the operating and capital liquidity needs of the business while maintaining a sizable and high-quality MSR portfolio that provides a recurring quarterly cash flow stream. We continued to execute on these plans in Q2 by completing sales of MSRs while maintaining a total servicing portfolio of approximately $295 billion at the end of the quarter. Additional bulk sales on loans with a total UPB of approximately $26.2 billion were completed subsequent to quarter end, resulting in total proceeds from MSR and excess sales year-to-date of nearly $1.4 billion. We have maintained a strong balance sheet with total equity of approximately $2.9 billion and total accessible liquidity of approximately $2.8 billion as of the end of the quarter. Matt mentioned our current strong competitive positioning from all of our efforts to provide superior technology, speed and service to our broker partners and our significant investments in growing both the wholesale channel and our market share. We believe that our current financial strength also positions us very well to capitalize on future market opportunities. Okay. I will now turn things back over to our Chairman and CEO, Mat Ishbia for some closing remarks.

Thanks, Andrew. I want to close with a few quick points. I'm pleased with how we have performed in this market. Like I said earlier, we did more purchase business than anyone else did in overall business this past quarter. We are on track for our biggest purchase year ever, even in this rate and inventory environment. We don't use those things as excuses; we use them to our advantage and continue to grow and dominate this mortgage business. And brokers are winning. This provides us a great foundation of business when rates do drop and the refinances do grow. With that backdrop in mind, our strategy is not changing. We've established a clear formula for long-term success in the mortgage market, and it means we'll continue to invest in our team members, invest in technology and products to better serve our brokers, invest in the broker channel, and we'll continue to invest in our future by hiring new team members prepared for the opportunity ahead. I'm also very proud to report that for the 11th quarter in a row, we announced a $0.10 quarterly dividend. And as I have said, 2023 has been a year the overall industry production is down, mortgage spreads are wide, consumers have faced rapidly rising rates. Yet against this backdrop, we are growing share, breaking purchase production records, and continue to invest in products and technology. Overall, the future is extremely bright at UWM, and you can tell I'm excited. For the third quarter, we expect production to be between $26 billion and $33 billion, and our margins in the range of 75 to 100 basis points. I'm going to turn things back over to the operator for Q&A.

Thank you. Your first question comes from the line of Kyle Joseph with Jefferies. Your line is open.

Good morning, Mat, Andrew, and Blake. Thank you for taking my question. I want to discuss origination capacity. Your volumes have increased significantly from last quarter. I understand you haven't had any layoffs, but can you clarify if the team is working overtime, if you brought in additional staff, or how you managed to increase volume by 40% quarter-over-quarter?

Thanks for the question, Kyle. The answer lies in our technology, which I've mentioned multiple times. You've been following us closely; people may not realize that everything we've communicated from quarter to quarter is part of a strategy and a plan. The technology investments we've made allow us to manage the volume when the opportunity arises, and that opportunity is currently available and will continue, particularly as we lead in the purchase market and among brokers. We're hiring, and we are also making some reductions. The recent hiring, where we brought on a couple of hundred people in the last month or two, does not impact our operational capacity because it takes about six months for new hires to get fully ready. This is why I emphasize the concept of scale. Other companies that are preparing by laying off staff are playing games; when the market turns—which we can't predict—the first six months is crucial for capturing market share. We are well-prepared. The hiring we've done has no effect on our performance in the second quarter, and we expect that to continue into the third quarter. Looking ahead, we are ready for the first or second quarter of next year if rates decline, and we anticipate being able to grow our business from $30 billion to $40 billion or even $50 billion, all while maintaining larger margins and more capacity than anyone else in the country. That’s when significant changes occur. We are ready, and scale is key for us, which explains why we are succeeding now and will keep succeeding.

Got it. Yes, that makes sense. And then just one follow-up for me. You touched on the jumbo opportunity in your remarks. Is that a function of what's going on with the banks? And how big of an opportunity is that for you guys?

Thank you, Kyle. As you know the industry well, it's crucial to recognize the impact of capital rules on banks and credit unions, which does not affect nonbanks and brokers like us. However, these rules may influence smaller correspondents and warehouse lines, while larger players we collaborate with remain unaffected. It's fascinating to consider the potential developments in this area. This ties into our jumbo considerations, as I continue to explore various avenues at UWM to capitalize on these opportunities and support brokers in their growth, which ultimately drives our success. I believe that jumbo presents a significant opportunity.

Got it. Thanks for taking my questions. Congrats on a good quarter.

Thank you.

Your next question comes from the line of James Faucette with Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.

Great. Thanks. I want to follow up on those last comments around the competitive environment, etc. Last quarter, I think you mentioned you were deploying some of your excess cash to self-warehouse some of your production in order to help manage interest costs. What's your strategy been like during this quarter, given the elevated rate environment and the fact that some warehouse lenders seem to be pulling back?

We continue to use our excess cash to manage our interest expenses, and we maintain a significant amount of cash on our balance sheet. Our strategy remains unchanged. As for the warehouse lines, they are not a major concern for us at UWM. While some smaller correspondents might be affected, it's not impacting brokers or our operations. In fact, as smaller regional banks withdraw from providing warehouse lines, those lenders often revert to being brokers, which can become valuable clients for UWM. However, I don't see this as a major factor at the moment.

Got it, Mat. I appreciate that color. And then just on pricing, you mentioned a couple of the pricing incentives in recent quarters, including conventional 1% down offering, as well as Game On and some other initiatives. How much of a drag are those assets having on your margin? And I guess the bigger question is, do you have a lifespan in mind for any of these promotions?

Yes. So they're not a drag on our margins. Like our margins are exactly where I want them to be in every aspect. So that's not a concern at all. To your question though, how long are these things, those are things that we don't really discuss and talk about. But the reality is, I think that these things that we do are all helping consumers, which we care about; brokers, which we care about; and helping the real estate community, which partners with our brokers. And then at the end of the day, it helps UWM and all of our investors and all our shareholders. And so, we're going to continue to stay in the details, stay in the weeds. I'm involved with this every single day, if not hourly in the day. And so we know exactly where we are, where we want to be, and we're going to continue to be in the weeds of our business. And so, there is no timing or ending of what we want to do on some of these things, and we're just building the relationship and deepening our relationship with the brokers for when rates do drop or just helping brokers win right now, which they're winning, we're winning and it's really an all-around success for UWM, and I think you saw that in our quarterly numbers, and I expect you to see that again in the third quarter, too.

Yes. Thanks a lot, Mat.

Our next question comes from Bose George with KBW. Your line is open.

Good morning. I wanted to focus on the volumes. You concluded Game On, but it seems your market share has increased slightly, and your volume exceeded the upper range of your guidance. Can you explain how this unfolded? What do you anticipate regarding your market share? Also, how do you view your share of the broker market this quarter compared to last?

Thanks for the question. Yes. I mean, you just described what's happened. And that's exactly what I said would happen if you look at our 2022 second quarter and third quarter, we talked about Game On. This is what we do all day, right? So I expected it. This is what we expected as we planned for. It's all part of the strategy. The thing that people don't get is that after 11 quarters of doing this, I figured that when we talk about something, we explain something, this is what we do all day. This is not hyperbole, this is not rhetoric like a lot of my competitors; we actually are doing it consistently. And hopefully, you've seen it. And so am I surprised that Game On worked and brokers joined the broker channel and our share went up, and then it's going to go down a little bit from the high end because we picked up our margin? No, I'm not surprised at all. That's what we do, and that's what the plan is. I'd be surprised if it didn't. And now from the market share, like I said, I expect our market share will go up. We did not do it for a market share play. But once someone starts working with UWM, they realize how great we are and how easy it is to work and that they can grow their business. And so once someone tries us, some brokers didn't try us before because they were so focused on price. Game On brought them into our tent and then they say, wow, you guys are amazing. I don't know why I care about 8 basis points or 12 basis points or 20 basis points more, and they become our loyal partners. And so that's what happened. That's what we're proud of, and that's what we'll continue. Where market share is this quarter, like I said, I consider the Game On a success if we go up from the 30% we were at that time; I think we've peaked at 50%. And if we stay in the low 40s, it's a pretty big success. And I think we're there. And I think you see our higher numbers on purchase and our brokers that are working with us are up, our LOs that are working with us are up. Overall, we feel great about where we're at, and our strategy is working. At the same time, we're coming up with a new strategy and new moves and new techniques to continue to win, continue to build this business for our partners, for our investors, for our brokers and for our team members here at UWM.

Okay. Great. Thanks a lot.

Your next question comes from the line of Doug Harter with Credit Suisse. Your line is open.

Thanks. Mat, you talked about kind of being prepared for the eventual turn in the market whenever that may be. How do you think about what that size of that market opportunity might be?

Yes, that's a great question, Doug. It's going to be significant. Each day, while my competitors are laying people off and becoming unprepared, we are seizing opportunities. Daily, we’re seeing loans close at 7% and 7.25%, creating a larger supply opportunity for us. We're also continuously deepening our relationships with brokers and preparing for scale. While everyone is hoping for a rate drop, I actually appreciate the current situation because it builds our opportunity. I cannot predict how long this opportunity will last—whether three months, six months, or three years—but we will be ready at UWM when others are not. As for the timing and magnitude, I can't say for certain, but it’s going to be substantial. Consider this: last year, we had $2 trillion and are projected to have $2 trillion this year, all at 7%. Even if rates drop to 5.875%, there will be $4 trillion in loans eligible for refinancing. Plus, let’s remember that we still have $28 billion of purchase volume, which we aim to maintain. I believe our refinancing volume will be significant, especially since many of my competitors, who are perhaps struggling and laying people off, will tout how strong their business model is, relying on rates. We, however, are focused on the mortgage business and remaining relevant in the economy. We depend on being operational and successful. When rates decrease, we will excel, just as others will, leading to widespread positivity about various strategies. This situation illustrates how market changes affect lenders—showcasing what we've accomplished and our preparedness for the refinance boom. Others may eventually adapt too, but if it's a short-lived boom, they may struggle to hire quickly, leading to layoffs and continuing their cycle of challenges.

Great. And I think historically, people have thought about 50 basis points as the incentive. How do you think about the incentive today? And is that lower within the broker channel than it might be in other channels?

I don't think it's lower in the broker channel. It's really about the savings for the consumer. The question is whether a 50 basis point rate drop is sufficient to trigger a refinance boom. I'm not convinced it is. I lean towards a drop of 75 to 100 basis points, but keep in mind that we're at 7% now, and a drop to 6.5% is still essentially around 7.25%. The target I'm aiming for to reach the high fives represents a significant opportunity. Are there refinances happening today? Yes, it seems to be about 12% of our business, falling somewhere between 10% to 15%. If refinances comprise a large percentage of your business, it indicates that you are not succeeding in the purchase market. We need to prioritize doing right by the consumer. We don't believe in tactics like subtly dropping rates and relying on missed payments. My target rate is around 3.25 points. When refinancing opportunities arise at 6% and 6.25%, it will indeed be beneficial when we hit the high fives. Additionally, many people with mortgages at 2.5%, 3%, or 3.5% aren't selling their homes due to the expense of selling and buying again. Once the market becomes more favorable, sellers will come forward, which will boost inventory and benefit both the purchase and refinance markets. That's why I'm optimistic. I've been expressing the same sentiments for years, and now we finally see the light at the end of the tunnel, whether it comes in three months, twelve months, or eighteen months. I believe it will happen sometime next year, though I can't say exactly when.

Great, Mat. Thank you.

Your next question comes from the line of Kevin Barker with Piper Sandler.

Great. Thanks for having me on. I just wanted to ask about the growth in the government origination volume. You saw quite a bit of originate production volume growth; I believe it's about 60% quarter-over-quarter. Could you talk about what you're seeing in that market, in particular, and whether it's from a competitive dynamic or some of the pricing initiatives you're doing there? Thank you.

Yes. Thanks a lot. So it's not really the pricing initiatives. A lot of times, the government loans, a lot of the growth is in the FHA world. The FHA world competes a little bit with the home affordable programs from FHFA, which is Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. And so as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac do less to help affordable homes, those borrowers go FHA. And if those borrowers go to FHA, FHA is the best option for them. Also, FHA did cut their MI, if you remember, which is their monthly MI, which actually made it so it was more advantageous sometimes to use an FHA loan than a conventional loan. And so brokers are smart; borrowers are smart. They're going to go to the cheapest payment. So the cheapest payments are FHA, and we're a great FHA lender. We can dominate that market if the market's conventional; we'll do it. And so right now, you're seeing a little pickup in FHA because the MIP cuts and maybe the affordability programs have not been as successful as FHFA is focused on and Fannie and Freddie kind of do their own things and some of this stuff. And so we're going to continue to focus on it. But whatever is best for the consumer is what we're going to focus on. And we do a lot of FHA; we do a lot of VA. Veterans is still another big opportunity. We think veterans don't necessarily get the best opportunities, and we've got to get them to find a mortgage broker.com, educate veterans because they can save a lot of money, too, and we're going to continue to work on that with veterans as well. And both veterans and FHA are both in the government world that you speak of.

Do you expect the veterans loans to be a greater source of refinance originations over the next year, just given the right sort of streamline that are in place?

Yes, exactly. Veterans have excellent purchase and refinance programs, including streamline refinances. These programs are beneficial, particularly for veterans and FHA borrowers, as they need to save enough money for refinancing to be worthwhile. I believe there is significant refinancing happening within the veteran loan program, but my primary focus is on helping veterans purchase homes. We can continue to support them alongside FHA initiatives. This is reflected in the government's increasing involvement, and our government volume has seen substantial growth from one quarter to the next. I expect this growth to continue.

Great. Just a quick clarifying question. Andrew, I believe you commented was a $26 billion servicing portfolio was sold after the quarter end. Could you clarify that? And then was there one sold during the quarter? I'm just trying to understand, see what happened in the quarter? Thanks.

Yes. After quarter end, just over $26 billion of UPB was sold. And during the quarter, I think it was about $28 billion of UPB was sold.

Okay. Great. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you, Mat.

Thank you.

Your next question comes from the line of Eric Hagen with BTIG. Your line is open.

Hi. Thanks. Good morning. Good to talk to you guys. Maybe a couple of follow-ups here. What are you thinking could lead to growth of the broker channel itself? Like as a share of the overall market, what would contribute to some relative growth for brokers? And then second question here: if you're doing, say, 20% or 30% more volume than you're doing right now, how do you feel like that would drive your policy towards returning capital and keeping MSRs just following up on that last question? I mean, you've been a seller of MSRs among other lenders. How do you feel like the volume of MSR sales for the market more broadly just kind of drives your appetite to self-servicing and the value that you think you can get for it?

Yes. So I'll answer the second question first, and you have to repeat the first one. But the second question is like, we're opportunistic. If there are opportunities out there, we'll sell servicing. We also love the servicing asset; we have about $300 billion of it, and we'll continue to service clients and take great care of your consumers and help brokers win when that opportunity comes down the road for the refinancing of those consumers. And so, but we look at all opportunities. Like my job and our job here is to make the right business decisions for our team members, our brokers, our shareholders; like everyone; we're thinking about everyone across the board. And so right now when there’s an opportunity to self-service, we’ll do it. If we think it's a good price, if not, we’ll sell none of it, right? Whether we sell the whole thing or we sell access, we have all these different options. Our liquidity is so strong right now, but I always like having extra liquidity and more liquidity. Cash is always king; we've done it. We've got $2.8 billion to $2.9 billion of access to liquidity, and we're in a great position across the board. So I feel good about our MSR strategy. Andrew has done a great job, Blake Kolo has done a great job, and we're in the weeds of that every day. And that's a day-by-day, week-by-week decision, and we capitalize at the right time to make the right decisions for our company. And repeat your first question because I went on a tangent; I want to make sure I get it.

No, that was helpful. Thank you. I was asking about relative growth in the broker channel itself, like the share of the market; what do you feel like the conditions would have to look like to see that the channel itself grow?

Loan officers are still transitioning over, and it's essential for us to maintain our service dominance for brokers, enabling them to strengthen their relationships with realtors and continue their daily operations. Last year, the market share for brokers was 20%, and it increased to 22% in the first quarter, which is a 10% rise. While that increase might not seem substantial to me, I find it exciting that we’re still leading even at this lower level. Just think about how much further we can go; no one in this industry believes that broker market share will decrease. Even the largest retail entities acknowledge that brokers are expanding. It’s common knowledge that brokers are succeeding, and though the current numbers might not be as impressive as I’d prefer, it only means there’s significant potential ahead for UWM. As we move from 22% to 25%, 27%, or even 30%, we certainly won't be doing less business than we are now. It's all growth potential at this stage, and I'm optimistic about our position. We are ready for scaling and the forthcoming opportunities ahead. Brokers are not only growing and thriving but are also committed to UWM, leading to collective success, and I feel very positive about our business.

Your next question comes from the line of Michael Kaye with Wells Fargo. Your line is open.

Hi. Good morning. One of your major competitors, who's both a direct-to-consumer lender and a wholesale lender, seems to be further emphasizing hiring local loan officers to better compete in the purchase mortgage market. The brand is obviously very strong and resonates with consumers. So what strategies and tools are you trying to put in brokers' hands to better compete with a threat such as this, especially if they go after the distributed retail model in a much rounder way?

Thanks, Michael. I appreciate the question. I'm familiar with that company. I don't think highly of the things they do. And the reality is understanding what that company is about; brokers know too. If you remember that company also is someone that all the brokers have left. And although if you look at their, what they've said, they've kind of fallen off the deep end too, they lost their CEO, fired the CEO, fired their President, fired their Chief Legal Officer, CFO; everyone's gone because their business strategy doesn't work. Now with that being said, when refinances come back, that company will probably do a lot of refinances. But the local loan officer strategy is a silly concept. It's just their way of saying, we can't win in a broker market. And that says they're tipping their hat to UWM. So we're going to try anything else we can do. And so the reality is, there's not a broker in America, and Michael, you know this, that doesn't think that UWM is the best partner for them and always does the right thing for brokers, and we'll continue to do that. And really back to the last question that was asked to me about how will brokers grow market share. The last time rates dropped, brokers weren't prepared, just like all these other lenders aren't prepared. And when that happens, they couldn't process the loan; they couldn't originate the loan. So we built that PA+, which I talked about earlier, which basically is helping brokers scale. Brokers don't have access. What happens when rates drop next year is they're going to double their business. Well, they can’t double their process. Everyone is going to go and hire operations people. UWM has already built the scale for brokers to succeed, and PA+ is a big part of that. Part of the strategy is preparing for that. But that company doesn't really matter to us, and the reality of when you're asking about Michael, you know what they are in the broker channel; they're not really relevant. And really, they're not really relevant in the overall industry besides when rates drop, which they'll be great again when rates drop, and then I'm sure they'll tell you guys how great they are at that point too.

Okay. Thank you.

Your final question comes from the line of Steve Delaney with JMP Securities.

Hi, Matt, great to be on with you and congrats on another strong quarter.

Yes, surprising, Steve.

Yes, picking up on your comments with Doug about coupons. Do you know what your average coupon was for second quarter production? Is that information something you and Andrew could share with the analyst community, or is that too much information for competitors?

Thank you, Steve. I appreciate your question. Yes, I do appreciate it, and I always value the questions I receive. This information is mostly public. While I don’t have the exact number available, you can find some data to estimate our average interest rate and where it stands in the market. Generally speaking, for UWM and the broader market, rates are around 6.75% to 7% for the second quarter. Of course, there may be variations, with some rates lower or higher depending on specific situations. Rates have fluctuated, and they depend on when you lock them in and when they close. Overall, I see rates in the 6s and low 7s, which is why I'm stating that high 5s is our target. When we reach high 5s, it's important to note that discussions around inflation are still relevant. However, we shouldn't overlook that the spreads between the 10-year and 30-year fixed rates are at record highs. It's possible that rates could drop at any moment; it doesn't require anything drastic, just a return to more typical spreads, which could create refinance opportunities for everyone. We're enthusiastic and prepared for this possibility. Unlike many competitors who rely on such changes to make their case, we don’t need it to happen to succeed, but we're eager for it and will continue to excel in the meantime.

Yes, futures indicate a decline of over 100 basis points by the end of 2024. I expect the long end of the market will align with the Fed, particularly the 10-year. Therefore, it’s reasonable to discuss lower rates at this juncture. I understand your concern about being prepared and active in the first six months.

One comment, Steve. I think it's definitely a reason to think that we're going to outperform the market.

Yes. Regarding that, do you have employee and broker head counts available, whether it's from today or June 30? It would be helpful to understand the growth we've experienced year-to-date.

I don't have those numbers handy. But the reality is you could always talk; I know you talk to Blake Kolo. I think he can get you some of the information. But the way we look at it is. Obviously, you're a big company; some people leave; we're hiring. I think we hired 350 people in July, which is actually new information because that's actually in the third quarter, so you can understand our focus. But none of those people, as I answered the question earlier, not the hires where there's 200-plus people in June, 300-plus people in July, none of those people are contributing to our success right now. They'll contribute to our success next year; we're preparing. It's like you're building this opportunity. What everyone else is slashing, slashing, slashing. And what I've tried to explain to people is that sometimes these refinance booms aren't five years running; they might be three months, six months. And if you're not prepared, you can't take advantage of it. You can't grow market share in PA+, the scale, the technology we have, the partnerships we have; we're ready for it, and we're going to be ready when it happens. And in the meantime, we're still going to have record purchase quarters, just like we did at $28 billion. We don't need any refinances; we don't need anything to be successful. We're going to win in all markets. And that's why I stated back in my roadshow. I know you followed us back then, Steve, and everyone's seen every quarter consistently successful.

Thanks for the comment. Blake, I'll follow up with you on those numbers. Appreciate the time.

And this concludes today's conference call. You may now disconnect.