Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Cohen and Steers' fourth quarter and full year 2025 earnings conference call. During the presentation, all participants will be in a listen-only mode. Afterwards, we will conduct a question and answer session. At that time, if you have a question, please press star followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. If at any time during the conference you need to reach an operator, please press star zero. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded Friday, January 23rd, 2026. I would now like to turn the conference over to Brian Heller, Senior Vice President and Deputy General Counsel of Cohen and Steers. Please go ahead.

Thank you, and welcome to the Cohen and Steers fourth quarter and full year 2025 earnings conference call. Joining me are Joe Harvey, our Chief Executive Officer, Mike Donahue, our Chief Financial Officer, and John Che, our President and Chief Investment Officer. I want to remind you that some of our comments and answers to your questions may include forward-looking statements. We believe these statements are reasonable based on information currently available to us, but actual outcomes could differ materially due to a number of factors, including those described in our accompanying fourth quarter, and full year earnings release and presentation, our most recent annual report on Form 10-K, and our other SEC filings. We assume no duty to update any forward-looking statement. Further, none of our statements constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy, the securities of any fund or other investment vehicle. Our presentation Reconciliation also contains non-GAAP financial measures, referred to as adjusted financial measures, that we believe are meaningful in evaluating our performance. These non-GAAP financial measures should be read in conjunction with our GAAP results. Reconciliation of these non-GAAP financial measures is included in the earnings release and presentation to the extent reasonably available.

The earnings release and presentation, as well as links to our SEC filings, are available in the investor relations section of our website at www.with that i'll turn the call over to mike thank you brian and good morning everyone my remarks today will focus on the as adjusted results reconciliation of gap to as adjusted results can be found in the earnings release and presentation yesterday reported earnings of 81 cents per share which equaled eps reported in prior quarter earnings for the full year 2025 was three dollars and nine cents per share compared to two dollars and 93 cents in 2024 key highlights for the quarter include solid revenue growth driven by higher average AUM combined with a stable effective fee rate we had another quarter of net inflows which makes five out of six trailing quarters with net inflows Operating income was higher than prior quarter and prior year. And our one-but-unfunded pipeline is again near multi-year highs. Now I'll provide some detail on our financial results. Revenue for Q4 increased 2% sequentially to $143.8 million. Revenues for the full year increased 6.9% versus the prior year to $554 million. The increase in revenue from the prior quarter was driven by higher average AUM and the recognition of $1.7 million in performance fees. Our effective fee rate during the quarter, excluding performance fees, was 59 basis points, which was consistent with the prior quarter. Operating income increased 3% to $52.4 million during the quarter. Operating income for the full year increased 6.3 percent to 195.1 million and our operating margin was 36.4 percent as compared to 36.1 percent in the prior quarter ending AUM in q4 was 90.5 billion which was down slightly from the end of q3 however as noted earlier we experienced higher average AUM during q4 as compared to the prior quarter net inflows during q4 were 1.2 billion primarily related to advisory and closed end funds which was offset by market depreciation and distributions joe harvey will provide additional insights regarding our flows and pipeline total expenses were higher compared to the prior quarter primarily due to increased gna expense during the quarter the increase in compensation of benefits was below the sequential increase in revenue to reflect actual incentive compensation to be paid. As a result, our compensation ratio for the quarter decreased to 39% and was 40% for the full year. This was just below the guidance we provided at the beginning of the year of 40.5%. The decrease in distribution and service fees during the quarter was due to reduced fees paid to intermediaries as investors shifted into lower fee-paying share classes. G&A expenses were higher during the quarter primarily related to travel and other business development-related activities as well as increased talent acquisition costs. Regarding taxes, our effective rate was 25.7% for the quarter and 25.3% for the year, which was consistent with 2024. Our earnings material presents liquidity at the end of Q4 and prior quarters. Our liquidity totaled $403 million at year end, which represents a $39 million increase versus the prior quarter end. As a reminder, our liquidity normally decreases during Q1 of each year due to our compensation cycle as year-end bonuses are paid. Let me now touch on a few items for 2026. With respect to compensation of benefits, we would expect our compensation ratio to remain at 40%. We continue to maintain a disciplined approach to managing talent by balancing our business needs and strategic priorities with revenue growth. We expect annual G&A growth in 2026 to moderate from 2025 and are projecting it to be in the mid-single-digit percentage range. Lastly, regarding 2026 guidance, we expect our effective tax rate to be 25.4% on an as-adjusted basis. I will now turn it over to John Che, who will discuss our investment outlook.

Thank you, Mike, and good morning. Today, I'd like to cover three topics. Our performance scorecard, the investment environment for the fourth quarter, and our 2026 outlook for the economy, markets, and the opportunity in our asset classes. Beginning with our performance scorecard, we have maintained a record of consistent long-term outperformance. On a one-year basis, 95% of our UM has outperformed its benchmark, while our three-, five-, and ten-year outperformance rates are all above 95%. percent. Ninety percent of our Open End Fund AUM is rated four or five star by Morningstar, a modest increase from last quarter. Importantly, our non-traded REIT, CNS REIT, has enjoyed a 10.3 annualized return since its January 2024 inception, which is more than double the return return of the median equity non-traded REIT. In short, we continue to meet our objective of providing long-term alpha for our clients. Transitioning to investment market conditions, equities finished 2025 with double-digit gains for the third consecutive year. Although sentiment in the fourth quarter generally shifted toward value-type stocks as investors trimmed positions in prior AI winners. In this environment, diversified real assets rose about 3% in the quarter, in line with global equities, but outperformed equities for the full year, which we believe is significant as market drivers broaden, which I will touch on later. Natural resource equities were a positive standout in the quarter, up more than 6%, driven by strength in metals and mining stocks amid reduced tariff uncertainty and expectations for stronger economic growth in 2026. Global real estate stocks were flattish overall in the quarter as gains in Asia-Pacific markets were countered by weakness elsewhere. While U.S. REITs had a modest decline in the quarter, we continued to see large return disparities by property cut. In this case, industrial and hotel REITs had sizable gains, while data center and telecommunication landlords remained sluggish. Private real estate, meanwhile, had a total return of 0.9%, as measured by the preliminary results of the NACREF Odyssey Index. This marked the sixth consecutive quarter that total returns have increased. the clearest private real estate recovery signal we've seen since the 2022 downturn. Within listed infrastructure, airports were a notable winner on strong passenger traffic volumes amid steady air travel demand. Most fixed income classes, including preferred securities, had slightly positive total returns in the quarter, with Treasury yields ending the period largely unchanged and as credit spreads remained historically tight. Turning to our economic and investment outlook, last quarter I noted that economic growth for 2025 was historically narrow, the so-called K-shaped economy. Unsurprisingly, corporate profit growth and market performance have also been narrow. As we enter 2026, we expect economic activity and market returns to broaden after several years of highly concentrated gains. Our view is for above consensus global growth, inflation, and interest rates. We believe the economic and market rotation is well underway. way. Real assets, which have lagged for some time, are evidence of this shift. In 2025, a diversified portfolio of real assets outperformed equities, with virtually all categories generating double-digit returns. Natural resource equities led, rising nearly 30%, followed by commodities at 16%, global listed infrastructure at 14%, and global real estate just under 10%. We also can't forget about gold, which had a banner year climbing 64% last year. Gold is an interesting case study. From mid-2020 to mid-2023, gold generally traded around $1,800 per ounce, with a range of plus or minus $200. dollars some argued that maybe gold had become displaced by bitcoin and secular change or that gold couldn't work in a higher interest rate environment two and a half years later gold is up 250 percent to 4 800 an ounce few people today now argue that gold is obsolete versus bitcoin In our experience, claims that this time is different, or that an asset class, like real estate, is also obsolete, tend to correct over time. And when the sentiment and fund flows shift, valuations can move meaningfully and quickly. Equities are at historically high valuations. Everyone knows this and has known this. Just because equity valuations were expensive at the start of 2025 and the market still went up doesn't mean relative valuations don't matter or that asset allocations don't need to shift. Instead, it means the case for asset allocation changes is even stronger today with the rotation just starting. turning to more specific drivers by asset class real estate has been a laggard the last several years because of the rapid rise in long-term interest rates from 2022 to 2023 oversupply in industrial apartments and self-storage and growth rates that decelerated from double digits down to only 3.3 percent growth in 2025. But that performance and those drivers are now in the past. Long-term interest rates have essentially been flat now for two and a half years. Those same higher rates plus construction costs that are up 40 percent since 2020 have driven new supply materially lower. Our companies are not in the construction business. lower supply is good for real estate. We expect the combination of lower supply and accelerating economic growth and less demand to result in accelerating REIT earnings above trend to roughly 8% in 2026 and 2027. In our experience, discounted valuations with accelerating growth drives multiple expansion. Performance drives flows to the asset class, and often we see the rotation from laggard to leader, and investors' fear of missing out take hold. And historically, the recovery in share prices is a sharp rather than measured move. Natural resource equities and global listed infrastructure represent some of the clearest examples of how broadening market leadership can unlock return over a longer time horizon. Capacity discipline, higher borrowing costs, and aging infrastructure have constrained the supply of natural resources. Meanwhile, growing populations, AI infrastructure needs, defense growth, and increased electrification are accelerating demand. Record metal prices and persistent supply chain disruptions in 2025 highlight this shift. Against this backdrop, natural resource equities led real asset returns last year, and importantly, we believe we're still early in a multi-year commodity super cycle. As market leadership broadens beyond mega cap tech, These companies offer structural growth, yield, diversification, and an attractive complement to richly valued traditional assets. Last, in fixed income markets, lower short-end rates combined with stronger broadening growth bode well for preferred securities. To be sure, overall credit spreads are tight. Preferreds represent high income from high quality issues and generally with tax advantages. In short, we continue to believe that the combination of a broadening economic growth engine along with relative valuation attractiveness will benefit our asset classes in 2026, while secular forces provide an exciting backdrop for many years to come. The stage is set for natural resource equities, along with listed infrastructure and listed real estate, play a larger role in portfolios as the next leg of participation unfolds. With that, let me turn the call over to Joe.

Thank you, John, and good morning. Today, Today I will review key business trends in the fourth quarter and then discuss our plans to drive organic growth and realize returns on investments we have made in recent years. We ended 2025 with good momentum across key business metrics. We saw positive flows into nearly all vehicles, fee rates were stable, our institutional pipeline continued to strengthen, and we are making progress on distribution initiatives. We ended the year with $90.5 billion in AUM, compared with the full-year average of $88.6 billion. While markets were strong in 2025, our largest strategy by AUM, U.S. REITs, returned just 3.2%, ranking 11th out of the 11 GIC sectors in the S&P 500. Some of our smaller strategies performed exceptionally well, such as natural resource equities at 30 percent, real assets multi-strategy at 17 percent, and global listed infrastructure ranging from 14 to 22 percent, depending on the sub-strategy. And that's before our teams generated alpha on top of those benchmarks. In the fourth quarter, we had net inflows of $1.28 billion, bringing full-year 2025 flows to $1.5 billion. Major storylines included net inflows in all vehicles, including improved advisory flows, which led at $651 million, flow leadership by strategy in U.S. REITs and global listed infrastructure and an inflow of $513 million from a rights offering and associated leverage for our infrastructure closed-end fund. Open-end funds had a small net inflow at $13 million with large inflows into two of our U.S. real estate open-end funds and outflows from our third real estate fund and our core preferred stock fund. Our non-U.S. CCAB funds had inflows of $89 million. Active ETFs had $175 million in net inflows, comprised of $25 million of seed capital and $150 million from clients. Advisory had four new mandates totaling $689 million, plus existing client inflows of $86 million, offset by one termination of $124 million. Sub-advisory had $30 million of net inflows framed by significant activity, including two new mandates of $532 million, one account termination of 330 million and client rebalancing outflows of 172 million our one unfunded pipeline continued to strengthen at 1.72 billion at year end across 20 mandates compared with 1.75 billion last quarter and the three-year average of 970 million we were awarded 660 million of new mandates in the quarter and an additional 385 million was won and funded within the quarter and therefore did not hit the pipeline. The largest percentage of the pipeline at 54% is U.S. REIT strategies with another 23% in global listed infrastructure and 16% in global real estate. The factors driving improved activity are similar to last quarter. More confidence by allocators in the macro environment and interest rate cycle additional flexibility and portfolios due to listed equity outperformance increased interest in more inflation sensitive allocations and takeaways from underperforming competitors over the past several quarters we have disclosed known terminations and last quarter that AUM was 500 to 600 million as before those terminations were principally driven by client allocation and investment vehicle changes rather than performance we have transitioned to a more typical low level of termination activity now that those outflows are complete other full year highlights include record net inflows of 1.6 billion into global listed infrastructure record inflows into our six ccav vehicles of 291 million and a doubling of our AUM in Australia over the past two years to $1.2 billion. All of these areas deserve continued focus in 2026. Since the Fed began easing in September 2024, we have had five of six quarters of net inflows averaging $612 million. This contrasts with nine prior quarters of outflows during the interest rate tightening period. While on the surface that may seem to reflect a business that is interest rate sensitive, I believe the right depiction is more muted, especially considering that interest rates have normalized and that will likely be in a more inflation persistent environment. The need for diversification amidst top decile valuations alongside a persistent inflation backdrop is helping to drive more listed real asset allocations. During 2026, we expect to focus on harvesting ROI, or return on investment, for investments we've made over the past several years in new strategies, vehicles, and talents. In November, we announced Dan Noonan's promotion to Head of Global Distribution after watching him implement his strategic plan for wealth that is well underway. Key goals include increasing coverage of the RIA channel while maintaining our presence in the wirehouses, putting greater resources on global sub-advisory, and growing our institutional presence outside of the U.S. with focuses on Japan, the Middle East, and Asia. We believe our largest AUM strategy, real estate, is entering a favorable return cycle. Looked at through REITs, real estate has been among the worst S&P sectors for multi-year periods, driven by asset pricing adjustments as well as earnings deceleration but we expect earnings to inflect positively as john discussed reads are statistically cheap versus equities in our view but fairly priced versus bonds and reflecting inflation reprices are 18 below trend versus replacement cost in our view at this time, real estate should garner 15% of the 60-40 medium risk portfolio with 9% allocated to listed real estate and 6% to private. Our U.S. REIT performance is outstanding and global strategies are seeing increasing interest. Meantime, our private business is gaining momentum with strong investment performance by our non-traded REIT, while distribution is expanding through an increasing number of independent and enterprise RIA firms. What's more, last year we launched an institutional vehicle that combines a listed real estate strategy with an indexed approach to core private property funds through our partner, IDR. We have commenced fundraising and are excited about this vehicle's prospects. My favorite investment strategy, the one to allocate to and forget about, so to speak, is natural resource equities. These companies produce critical real assets which are connected to the economy, survival, national security, and capital investment. Their supply-demand profiles are attractive because of depleting resources in many cases and result in strong pricing power. As John articulated, resource equities are in a multi-year return cycle in our view. Following record flows and global listed infrastructure in 2025, we expect the allocation momentum to continue. The investment case remains compelling, centered around critical themes such as de-globalization and evolving supply chains, digitalization and power demand and decarbonization. We successfully completed a rights offering for our closed-end fund and are excited about our recently launched active etf interestingly several of the institutional wins in 2025 include open-end vehicles which provide opportunities for organic growth our core preferred strategy has been in outflows in spite of yields normalizing and fixed income allocations being re-established potentially the result of competition from private credit strategies nevertheless preferreds had very strong returns at 25 25 and we delivered alpha we are prepared for allocations to return to preferreds with open end fund etf and ccap vehicles in both our core and short duration preferred strategies we are very pleased with launch of active etfs we closed the year with five etfs and total aum of 378 million of which our seed capital is 90 million we are pleased with their trading spreads performance and flows our first launches in february were reeds preferreds and natural resource equities in december we launched short duration preferreds and the global infrastructure strategy which is more concentrated and opportunistic in nature than our open-end fund. We are working toward threshold AUM milestones for allocators while continuing to deliver performance. Next milestone is to achieve profitability. Efforts to grow our offshore CCAB vehicles are paying off with record net inflows in 2025 and in 24 of the past 26 quarters. The leading flow CCAB is our real assets multi-strategy, a reflection of the inflation environment. These vehicles are seeing flows in over eight countries, led by the UK and South Africa. We expect to achieve profitability in 2026, and the next milestone is to scale AUM. Turning to our investment initiatives, we have invested significantly in the business the past few years across vehicles and strategies. As these businesses scale, we will add more distribution resources calibrated to organic growth. At this point, we expect that we're reaching the peak of balance sheet funding for new vehicles and strategies. In closing, Kona Steers will celebrate its 40th anniversary in 2026. We'll be celebrating both our evolution from a single strategy manager to a global real assets manager, as well as the role of the listed markets. What Marty Cohen and Bob Steers, our founders, created in 1986 is truly remarkable. First, in terms of pioneering a better way to invest in core real estate through the listed REIT market. Second, was to lead the way in evolving the traditional 60-40 portfolio construction to include real asset allocations in the 20% context to enhance returns with better inflation sensitivity and diversifications. Our founders backed their belief in a list of markets by bringing Cohen to Sears public in 2004. It has been a spectacular way for us to organize for our clients, our employees and the business, particularly now with the speed of change in asset management. Part of the 40-year celebration will be to extol the virtues of the listed markets. Too many companies have false impressions about the costs and risks of being public. To us, it's easy. It's like waking up in the morning. And being public provides discipline, governance, brand awareness, and resources to continually innovate and improve our business. Going public also provided a strong balance sheet to support seeding strategies and funding co-investments. Our active ETF launches and the non-traded REIT are prominent recent examples. We will continue to do our part to promote capital formation in the listed markets in 2026. Now I will turn the call back to Abby to facilitate Q&A.

Thank you. If you have dialed in and would like to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad to raise your hand and join the queue. If you would like to withdraw your question, simply press star one a second time. If you're called upon to ask your question and are listening via speakerphone on your device, please pick up your handset and ensure that your phone is not on mute when asking your question. Again, it is star one to join the queue.

And our first question comes from the line of john dunn with evercore isi your line is open hi um i wanted to ask a little more on the private real estate it seems like we're seeing signs of some improving demand for that asset class first of all are you seeing that and then also do you think it can be a more significant contributor in 2026?

Well, I think we're early in the process of investor interest coming back to private real estate, but we're seeing some good early phase signs. The level of interest is increasing, particularly with some cracks showing up in the private credit markets and the vehicles in the wealth channel that have raised a lot of money. So when you just follow the chain of factors that are starting to drive that, you know, private credit is wrestling with interest rates coming down some, some potential credit problems, and the fact that just been a lot of money raised. So you see the recent articles that have followed the outflows that are coming from of those vehicles. And we believe that some of that capital will find its way into the real estate market because the factors driving what's going on in private credit will help the private real estate market, namely the reduction in interest rates and the fact that prices have adjusted in commercial real estate and that the capital flows have really slowed. So as with all these types of transitions it'll take it'll unfold over a period of time but you know we're as i said we're seeing more more shoppers more lookers and and uh you know we're uh we're really well positioned with our our our non-traded reap because uh we believe we have the right investment strategy we've delivered performance we're gaining critical mass and uh we're we're starting to broaden the number of platforms that we're on so we're ready in case that transition does follow through got it and then on the active ETFs you know other vehicle launches take time for the market to kind of accept but because you know these are based on established strategies do you think the active ETFs can scale more quickly for you guys absolutely and there are a lot of factors behind that you named one of them uh you know it's there are core strategies they're just uh delivered in a in a different vehicle and the market has voted that uh active active etfs are the way to go for for the future of course uh there's nothing wrong with open-end funds and there will be a lot of advisors and individual investors that continue to hold them but at the margin the new business models are using active ETFs more so because we've got you know proven strategies or or strategies that are close cousins and you know based on our core strategies investors know what they're what they're getting is just happening through a different vehicle so you know I think that as I said in my remarks and we've got our milestones we want to get the vehicles as we launch them to scale so that allocators know they can come in and have efficient trading spreads on them. Because the strategies in some cases are a little bit different, they'll get comfortable with those differences and the performance that we're delivering. And once we get to critical mass so that model-based users and other allocators are comfortable, I think they have the potential to scale up very rapidly. And that stands in contrast to some of the private strategies you're seeing in non-trader REITs or interval funds, et cetera, where it is a new allocation for the wealth market and some of the strategies are are less tested uh and and and and and because they have you know private a private element to them uh that there's there's there's more risk for the for the for the gatekeepers and and they want to see more uh performance so i think it's very different and it makes us very excited because uh you know we can see how uh for for the new capital going into active etfs it can help these vehicles scale very rapidly.

John, this is John Che. I would just add one thing, you know, I think our, you know, REIT ETF is a really good example of that. So this is a CSRE. So, you know, as an example, it took us 159 days to get to 50 million of AUM in that ETF. And with each proceeding 50 million, we're achieving that faster and faster and faster, meaning it took us almost half a year to get the first 50. At this stage, it's taken us a little bit more than a month to get the last 50. So clearly, adoption is accelerating and has continued to accelerate.

Thank you.

And our next question comes from the line of Rodrigo Ferreira with Bank of America. Your line is open.

Good morning. Thank you for taking my questions. Can you talk a little bit about the recent progress in the institutional channel? Just what have conversations looked like and maybe contrast it to what it had looked a year ago? And then if you also can maybe expand like based on the conversations you're having right now, where do you think it can go from here?

Sure, Rodrigo. Yeah, I think that's one of the critical inflections in our business. And we've We've been talking about this for the past year or so. And again, like a lot of these transitions, it takes time. But we've now had a very strong pipeline for two quarters in a row. This quarter, I'd say that pipeline has broadened a little bit. It's deepened a little bit with the number of mandates, the location of the domicile of the allocator and the range of strategies. So I think it's a combination of our team just being very steadfast and sticking with the process and the program, but also the environment changing. As I said, I think the environment has improved for allocators with more liquidity in the portfolios it's it's not totally uh you know in the free and clear because you know there's still illiquidity and uh private allocations but uh with you know for go back a couple years uh allocators were reestablishing fixed income allocations okay uh you know now with equities it's created more flexibility and so and then with a backdrop of uh you know persistent inflation We just see more allocators coming back to the strategies that we manage. And so it's a better environment. Our teams are very focused and disciplined about pursuing the process. So I would expect, as these things go, for this to continue to unfold. And as we've talked about also in prior calls, you know, we're working on investing in the institutional side of our business and with, you know, adding sales professionals, adding consultants to help us in different markets. So becoming more bullish on this segment of the market and can't wait to report in future quarters.

Got it. And maybe for my follow-up, on the one-but-unfunded pipeline, it seems like the amount that you're winning and funding intra-quarter has been going up. Is that a fair observation? And then also, can you comment on any dynamics driving that?

You know, I think over the longer history, what happens in the one-and-unfunded or the intra-quarter is pretty consistent. So the fact that it's turned up in the recent quarters is just a reflection of the broader dynamic that I've described. I don't think there's anything unique to that. But over the longer term, it's been pretty consistent.

Got it.

And as a reminder, it is star one if you would like to ask a question. And we will take follow-up questions from John Dunn with Evercore ISI. Your line is open.

Thank you. So just thinking about, like, regional demand, you mentioned on the wealth management side where there's demand for the C-caps. But on the institutional side, could you just kind of give us a flavor of any pockets of demand, you know, around the world for both advisory and sub-advisory?

Again, if you go back a couple years in a more challenging environment for advisory, and it's also been a period when the U.S. has really performed well market-wise, more of the activity got concentrated in the U.S. I would say we're starting to see that expanding now with the non-U.S. international markets performing better, a little bit of concern on the geopolitical front and non-U.S. allocators not wanting to be so concentrated in the U.S. But just to give you a flavor for the domiciles of our allocators, it's Belgium, it's Canada, it's Japan, it's Philippines, it's the UK. So, you know, it's starting to expand, and I would hope to see that continue as we are allocating more resources, more sales talent in the non-U.S. markets.

Got it. And then maybe just one more quick one. On the global real estate side, what do you think some of the dynamics that could change that would move that to become more of a tailwind?

Well, I think there's, this is John, I think there's two. The first is, generally speaking, global real estate is more favored by global institutions. So as we've talked about, there had been lower interest in real estate overall in 2022, 2023, 2024. So I think as we see a reacceleration in demand for real estate from global institutions, I think generally they're going to have a preference for global real estate. So that's the first thing. I think the second thing is that for U.S.-based investors, and so that's both for wealth and institutional, the reality is that international underperformed for the last, you know, 10, 11, 12 years, not every year, but a majority of those years. And so it's like the comments I talked about, you know, sometimes when something underperforms, people say, oh, there's something structurally wrong. It's never going to perform. And there's elements of that. But the realities are more that growth had slowed in China, that growth was slow in Europe, and that places like Europe and Japan had to go through interest rate resetting cycle. Again, a majority of those factors are more in the rearview mirror, and we've seen last year international real estate did meaningfully better than U.S. real estate, and that's probably a harbinger of what we're likely to see over the next few years.

So I think we're seeing changes in behavior, both from global institutions and thinking about U.S. versus global, as well as U.S. institutions. thanks very much and our next question comes from the line of max sykes with gabelli your line is open oh thank you uh for the call today i just on back going back to the etfs the active etfs could you do perhaps break down some of the areas of demand that you're seeing and any surprises there so retail platforms rias uh institutional thank you i wouldn't say there's been too many surprises

But when you see it actually happen, it gives you more conviction about the strategy. But we're seeing examples of RIAs who only use ETFs in their practice. So this is money that we never would have seen had we not launched active ETFs. We're seeing existing holders of our open-end funds who are converting their practices to using ETFs, and so there's some swapping going on. You know, in our business projections for the ETFs, we've factored in some cannibalization, so to speak. And to the extent that you can measure that, we'd say that it's kind of in line with what we've expected. But if this is money that would be going away for us, we're not better off for having launch the active ETFs. So, you know, there are model, you know, builders who only use ETFs and so that's a dynamic. You know, so far the activity has been with the independent RIAs because for the wire houses we need to go through the process of getting onboarded. We're in that process for several of our uh etfs so as that happens we're gonna we're gonna be able to you know see other dimensions to how this transition in uh from open end funds to uh etfs is gonna unfold and uh you know as we talk about these launches we talk about it in phases you know so we've launched five uh We're going to continue to create vehicles that we have all of our core strategies and ATFs, but then over time, there's going to be a longer term exercise of figuring out how to create vehicles for other of our open-end fund AUM, which we haven't been able to address with with what we currently have so it's there's going to be a process that unfolds over multiple years great thank you that concludes our question and answer session i will now turn the conference back over to mr joe harvey for closing remarks well thank you abby and thank you everyone for taking the time to listen to uh our our outlook and uh look forward to reporting our first quarter and April. See you then.

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call and we thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.