Capital Clean Energy Carriers Corp. (CCEC) Q3 2026 Earnings Call Transcript

Good day, everyone, and welcome to the Capital Clean Energy Carriers Corp. Third quarter, 2026 financial results. Please note that this event is being recorded. At this time, all participants are in listen-only mode. We will open the line for questions following the prepared remarks. If you would like to ask a question, please press pound key 5 on your telephone keypad. I will now turn over the call to today's host, Brian Gallagher, EVP, Investor Relations. Brian, please go ahead.

Thank you. Good evening and good afternoon to those of you in the US, and welcome to the Capital Clean Energy Carriers Q3 2026 earnings call. My name is Brian Gallagher, Head of Investor Relations. With me today, I have Gerry Kalajaratas, our Chief Executive, Nikos Kalajaratas, our CFO, Nikos Tribodakis, our Chief Commercial Officer and Head of LNG Commercial, and Jack Neen, our Head of LPG Commercial. Before we start, please note that today's presentation contains forward-looking statements and actual results may differ materially. Please refer to the notice on slide 2 and the risk factors in our 2025 annual report on Form 20F. So let's kick off looking at the key highlights from the Q3 that we've just finished. In the third quarter, we took delivery of three vessels, the LNG carrier Alkios 1, the dual-fuel MGC carrier Eradeus in July, And the LCO2 multi-gas carrier, Alchemos, in September. During the quarter, we also secured new employment for two energy carriers and four gas carriers. The TCE for the quarter was just under $84,000 a day for our LNG fleet and just under $41,000 a day for our gas fleet. Net income from continuing operations was $34.6 million, up 52% compared to the same period last year, and we declared a dividend of $0.15 per share, our 78th consecutive cash quarterly dividend. Contracted revenues stand at around $2.8 billion for the group, or $4.2 billion for the group, including options. That gives you a sense of the highlights, and now pass on to Nikos with regard to the financials.

Thank you, Brian. Before turning to the financials, I would like to touch on our dividend payout, which remains a core part of the company's value proposition to our shareholders. As already announced on October 22nd, we declared a quarterly cash dividend of 50 cents per share. This is our 78th consecutive quarterly dividend since our IPO in 2007. The dividend will be We paid on November 12th to shareholders of record as of November 3rd. Turning now to the income statement. Revenue for the three months ended September 30th, 2026, increased to 138.1 million from 95.6 million during the same period last year. The 44% increase primarily reflects the growth in the average number of vessels in our fleet to 19.7 vessels from 13 vessels during the same period last year, following the delivery of 300 gas carriers, two dual-fuel medium gas carriers, and three LNG carriers during 2026. Voyage expenses for the third quarter of 2026 increased to 9 million from 2.2 million in the third quarter of 2025. The increase was mainly due to voyage expenses incurred by certain of our vessels during their delivery from the yard and the start of their employment, Vessel operating expenses and depreciation and amortization increased by 6.2 million and 8.6 million, respectively, compared to the same period in the previous year, mainly due to the increase in the average number of vessels in our fleet. Interest expense and finance cost increased to 33.7 million from 25.5 million during the same period last year. The increase mainly reflects higher average indebtedness following the financing of the vessels delivered this year, partly offset by a decrease in the weighted average interest rate on our debt. Therefore, net income from continuing operations was $34.6 million for the quarter, or $0.57 per share, corresponding to an increase of 52% compared to the same period last year, as this year's deliveries start to contribute. So moving on to our balance sheet. We maintain a solid gas position with total gas of 287 million, including restricted gas, and the net leverage ratio adjusted for the fair market value of our vessels at approximately 55% total assets grew to 4.9 billion, that is an increase of more than 20% from the beginning of 2026, as we took delivery of eight vessels Shareholders' equity rose by 87 million or by 6% to approximately 1.6 billion. As of quarter end, total debt stood at 3.2 billion. Floating rate debt, which makes up approximately 78% of our total debt, carried an average margin of 1.70%. Our fixed rate debt, together with With the $800 million of zero cost interest rate collabs entered into during the second and third quarters of this year, make approximately 47% of our total debt either fixed or hedged. So let me now turn to our CAPEX program. Our new building program is well-funded. We have already paid a substantial portion of the CAPEX from internally generated gas, asset monetizations, and attractive debt financing, including our bond issuance in February. Assuming 70% debt financing for the vessels that do not yet have facilities in place, and excluding future operating cash flows and net proceeds from the sale of Amore Mio to the previously announced NNG joint venture, We expect to fully fund the remaining capex while also releasing significant liquidity to the company. So let me now hand over to Nikos Tripodakis, our Head of LNG Commercial, for an update on our LNG fleet and the market. Thank you, Nikos.

I would like to start with slide 10, which shows our charter book for 21 latest generation LNG carriers, 15 on the water and six under construction. Our total contracted backlog is It's around 2.7 billion, with an average firm duration of 6.4 years, rising to 4 billion and 9.4 years if all options are exercised. Long-term charters with high-quality counterparties insulated us from this quarter's spot volatility. Our market exposure is deliberate and limited. Alkaos One is on an 18-month index-linked charter to early 2028. Athlos will start a one-year index-linked charter on delivery before her seven-year charter. And we have five new building positions open. We also continue to lengthen the book. The sale of Amore Mio I to our joint venture with BGN at $230 million remains on track to complete in the first quarter of 2027, when she starts a 10-year charter with two three-year extension options. Until then, she's employed on a three-month charter. For our open positions, latest generation two-stroke vessels like ours remain the first to be fixed and command a clear premium over older tonnage, which gives us confidence as we market them for long-term employment. Moving on to slide 11, we can see that the LNG market has proven more resilient than initially expected after the outbreak of war. Qatar and UAE volumes have been largely shut in. However, an increase in production, mainly from the U.S., has partially offset the volumes lost with the rest of the lost output being met by lower demand in Europe and North Asia. The U.S. has stepped up to replace part of the lost Middle East volumes. Year-on-year, U.S. project expansions have added roughly eight cargos a week, offsetting around 40% of the loss from Qatar. Global LNG exports in the first nine months were down just 1.3%, as record U.S. output and new startups absorbed most, but not all, of the U.S. of the UA Gulf shortfall. For shipping, this matters as U.S. cargos travel much further to reach Asian buyers, which supports 12-mile demand over time. On the import side, global energy imports were down 1.7% year-on-year. North Asia, Europe, and buyers that depend on Qatar's supply cut back as prices rose, while Egypt, Thailand, India, and Taiwan increased their imports. Export growth came mainly from the U.S., Canada, and West Africa. The longer the Gulf disruption lasts, the more buyers will We look to diversify towards Atlantic supply, which is structurally positive for long haul shipping. Even Qatar is now purchasing US LNG volumes in order to diversify. For shipping, a strong first half of 2026 gave way to a softer third quarter as the risk premium faded and vessel availability rose. Atlantic two-stroke spot rates averaged around $51,000 a day with a low of around $10,000 a day in August. The quarter itself was very volatile. Long haul All two-stroke rates were above 90,000 a day at the start of July before falling sharply in August as the inter-basin arbitrage closed and prompt tonnage built up. Pacific rates held up for longer, averaging around $56,000 a day. A late quarter pickup in US Gulf requirements showed how quickly the market can tighten, but the depth of available tonnage, new building deliveries, relets, and shorter rotations However, as it is always the case with shipping, volatility is a double-edged sword, and as we can see in slide 12, this winter holds a significant risk premium. Moving on to slide 12, Europe enters this winter with gas storage at historically low levels. EU storage was around 74% full in mid-October, roughly 11% lower than a year ago, And key markets such as Germany and the Netherlands are near 60% full. A backward-rated forward curve through the summer gave little incentive to refill from the spot market, and that leaves Europe more dependent on LNG this winter and more exposed to cold weather and supply disruption. It also means a larger refill requirement next summer, which should support LNG demand into 2027. Europe is expected to enter November only 75% to 78% full, around 10 points below the five-year average. With lower inventories, European gas prices are more sensitive to cold spells and to competition with Asia for cargoes. A cold winter could take stocks down to 10% to 15% by the end of the season, which would carry through into next year's refilled demand. Weather here is a swing factor and current forecasts point to a milder start to the winter, so we expect volatility in both directions. In a market where global gas prices trade at four-year Currently around $35 per mbtu, the value for a modern LNG carrier for the charter increases exponentially. The boil-off cost becomes the most important factor in LNG transportation and in this price environment of approximately $30 to $35 per mbtu, the boil-off cost differential between one of our vessels in CCC and an older LNG carrier can be up to $100,000 per day. Moving on to a longer term View, where the US is set to further solidify its position as the world's biggest producer. On slide 13, looking further out, supply growth extends well into the early 2030s. Use liquefaction capacity alone is now expected to exceed 260 million tons per annum by 2031. FID momentum has also continued. Five projects totaling almost 58 million tons per annum Have taken FID in 2026, including LNG Canada Phase 2 in the third quarter, and several more are targeting decisions by the year-end. Every one of these projects needs shipping, and a significant part of it is long-haul Atlantic volume. Three more projects, CLI-SIMS in Canada, XSLNG, and YPF's export project in Argentina, are targeting decisions around the end of the year. If all three proceed, 2026 FIDs would reach close to 100 million tons per annum, translating to firm demand for 150 to 300 LNG carriers. The impact of this demand surge is reflected in the term chart rates as we can see in slide 14. The term market has held up far better than the spot market towards the end of Q3. One-year rates eased with a spot correction Averaging around $55,000 a day in the quarter, but rates for three years and longer have remained broadly stable. Charters are focused on 2027, and index-linked structures are getting traction. For longer periods, rates continue to be supported by new building economics. Forward rates softened into 2027 before recovering in 2028, a reflection of vessel re-deliveries expected in 2027, including 18 uncommitted new buildings. Index-linked fixtures are typically being concluded at around 90% to 95% of the relevant index. And at the long end, five-year rates for prompt deliveries are being fixed in the high 70s to mid 80s a day, well above one-year levels. The message from the term market is clear. This is a near-term tonnage imbalance, not a change in the long-term structural fundamentals. Moving on to the final slide now, where we still view the supply and demand inflection point happening in 2028. This analysis compares cumulative net fleet growth with the vessels required by liquefaction projects. Net fleet growth peaks around 2029 and then declines as older tonnage leaves the fleet, while the vessels needed by projects that have taken FID keep rising to over 440 by 2031, and over 700 including committed projects. That is why we focused on the latest generation vessels on long-term charters. On the supply side, ordering has picked up despite the conflict. The order book now stands at 286 ships, around 36% of the fleet. 71 vessels were delivered in the first nine months, a further 32 are due by year-end, and 9 to 1 are scheduled for 2027, and 76 for 2028. 42 of those new buildings remain uncommitted, and scrapping has paused rather than stopped, with seven vessels demolished so far this year. As rates normalize, we expect older steam and early dual fuel tonnage to leave the fleet at a faster pace. I now hand over to Jack Neelan, our Head of LPG Commercial, for the gas carrier update. Jack?

Thank you, Nikos. Turning now to our gas carrier fleet and the handy mid-sized gas markets. All five of our 2026 gas carrier new buildings have now been delivered and employed. The LCO2 multi-gas carriers Active, Amadeus and Alchemos, and the dual-fuel MGCs Aristoyenes and Aridaeus. Five more deliver in 2027, the Athenian and Arytos in January, Anios and Aginor in March, and the Adrianos in July. This will then complete our gas program. The fleet on the water is fixed into 2027, and our 2027 new builds are already attracting firm-term interest. Our gas fleet earned $40,987 a day in the per quarter, and we have been layering in coverage. Arudeus moves on to a one-year time charter in Q4, while Alchemos, Active, and Amadeus are fixed on charters through to the second quarter of 2027. Our multi-gas carriers can carry LPG, petrochemicals, ammonia, and liquefied CO2, and our MGCs are LPG geofuel with the ability to carry LPG, ammonia, and petrochemicals, so the fleet has the flexibility to follow the strongest traits. Moving on to slide 18. This slide shows how earnings have moved across vessel sizes. Rates for the larger fully refrigerated ships firm sharply. One-year TC assessments for free OTCs have nearly doubled this year to around $88,000 per day and the MGC rates are up around $10,000 a day with 40k conventional units now around 43k. Semi-ref handy rates have held broadly flat at around First 2000, as ethylene-capable ships moved into the LPG pool when the ethane arbitrage closed. Free factors drove the market in the quarter, continued disruption at the Strait of Hormuz, growing constraints at the Panama Canal, and record US LPG exports. Middle East LPG and ammonia exports remained largely shut in, so buyers kept sourcing from the US, West Africa, and South America. At Panama, falling water levels led the Canal Authority to suspend Panama's daily options from the July 25th. This then pushed more US cargoes onto MGCs and VLGCs onto longer routes via the Cape of Good Hope. Moving now onto the handy market update. The handy market in the third quarter went from long to sold out. In July, the west position list lengthened as MGC tonnage briefly became available and Eflin-capable ships entered the LPG pool with spot earnings briefly falling below $20,000 a day. By September, MGC availability had sold out. Two handies were needed for every MGC cargo, taking earnings into the $40,000 per day. One-year TC assessments for semi-refs held around $32,000 per day. The supply picture for handies is supportive. The fleet stands at 131 vessels, with five joining the fleet in the third quarter, and the order book just six ships, under 5% of the fleet, with no new orders placed in the quarter. Around a fifth of the fleet is over 20 years old, and more than half is over 15. We are also seeing charters start to look at longer cover, with three fixtures of 12 months or more concluded in the third quarter. Moving on now to the medium gas carriers update. The MGC segment stayed structurally tight. In July, with owner tonnage limited, spot TCE was around $62,000 per day, based as a 40k conventional vessel. U.S. positions for August were fully committed, and a wave of fixing in September cleared the list, taking spot TCE to almost $80,000 per day. U.S. MGC LBG loadings reached a record 50 in September. The one-year TC assessments for 40k conventional ships rose to around 43k per day, and our early 2027 new buildings are already drawing firm-term bids. New-build The deliveries continue to be absorbed. The fully refrigerated MGC fleet stands at 150 vessels with eight joining in the third quarter. The order book of 49 ships is about a third of the fleet. Almost all of those new buildings are 40K or larger and both dual fuel and scrubber fitted, which is exactly the modern flexible tonnage charters are looking for. Term interest is broad with 12 months fixtures in the 40s and some charters now looking to take longer coverage beyond two years. That concludes the slide presentation. With that, I'll hand back to the operator, where management will be available to take any questions.

Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question, please press pound key five on your telephone keypad. Our first question is from Alexander Bidwell from Weber Research and Advisory. Please go ahead.

Good afternoon. How are you guys doing? Good, that's good soon. So I wanted to actually follow up on a question from last quarter. So the global gas market seems to be pricing in some renewed degree of supply constraints into the second half of 2027, which implies some degree of risk to the right on a Middle East restart. Can you give us a sense of where charter sentiment sits around the timing of a conflict resolution and how any quarter-over-quarter changes to that sentiment have impacted charter?

Hi, Alex. So, obviously, when we try to give a view on how long this conflict will last, we're obviously expressing our opinion. The best indication that would help you with your question would be how long are the Qataris chartering out their own fleet, right? This is a concrete indication of their view of how long this will last. And I can tell you that as of now, we're looking at at least four to five months timeframe based on that piece of information, which is usually pretty reflective of their view on outages. And usually that's the case with outages. When you see the producer chartering out their own fleet for a next period of time, it's a clear indication that They expect that they would not need that fleet for that amount of time. Now, in any timeframe, in situations like this, beyond that, we would be guessing. But our view is that this situation will continue for at least the first half of 2027. All right.

Thank you for the color there. And then to follow up, just looking a little bit longer term, we're seeing the conflict driving some LNG buyers to diversify their supply portfolios, with some of the recent SPAs likely being driven by that diversification. Based on your recent commercial discussions, have you seen that diversification push start to impact shipping demand in the back half of the decade?

Yes, in a positive way. I mean, who would have expected that the Qataris would be buying multiple million tons from a US project, right? Crazy times we're going through. But all in all, this is very positive for LNG shipping for two reasons. One, more FIDs, which, you know, regardless of where it comes from the world, it requires shipping. And also because of toned miles. So U.S., as we have explained multiple times in the past, has potentially one of the best multipliers for LNG freight demand, especially if there is an open arbitrage to Asia. One MTPA from Qatar to Asia would require one ship. One MTPA from the U.S. to Asia would require three ships. So, it's a double bubble, in a sense, for LNG shipping if more U.S. projects go ahead, and this situation clearly helps this out.

All right. Thank you very much. I'll turn it back over. Thank you.

Our next question is from Greg Lewis from BTIG. Please go ahead.

Hi. Thank you. Good afternoon, and thanks for taking my questions. You know, I was hoping you could give a little bit of an overview of kind of the state of the build order book. You know, I really appreciate, you know, you have a handful of ships on the LNG side, LNGC side that are coming delivered, but just kind of, you know, how does that stand versus kind of the overall order book that you highlighted earlier in the slide presentation?

Just to make sure that I understand your question, what would you like us to expand on on top of the slide with the fleet? Like what our order book is like.

Versus the industry.

Okay, well, the most important point on this is that we hold the biggest open order book of any of our competitors. If I'm not mistaken, right now we have 42 open new buildings in an order book of 287 ships, And of those, we control five, where the second biggest competitor has four. So we hold the lion's share of open new buildings. And the majority of those are delivering in line with where we see the inflection point in the market from 2028 onwards. Does this answer your question?

Yeah, perfect. And then just as we think about, you know, the opportunity to recontract the vessels, you know, as we think about, you know, just fixed rate versus index versus index with floors and ceilings, I mean, I guess how is that evolving, right? And, like, does that end up, I mean, I'm clear that's in the negotiation process, but as we think about, you know, CCEC positioning its fleet, should we kind of think about a mix of all three or, you know, I guess given where we are in the cycle right now, I mean, hey, the Qataris have been putting, you know, some of their tonnage in the market, right? You know, seasonally weak rates are maybe holding up better than some would think. Is that kind of helping, you know, pave the way for higher floors and higher ceilings and maybe some of this index length charters?

I think the best way to think about this is that the market is undersupplied from 28 onwards. The problem is that the front, let's say 2026, And the first half of 2027 is contaminating the long-term rates. So what would be 90,000 a year and a half ago has now become, let's say, 80,000. What we're trying to do at CCC is make sure we don't commit into a long-term fixed rate at the point in time where we see being the lowest, i.e. now. These index deals have given us the opportunity to navigate this first part of the curve, 2027, with a market-linked deal, which currently right now is the same as the fixed price bid for one year, while at the same time we keep the upside, right? We're entering a winter where, as we mentioned, we have $35 per mbdu gas prices. If there is any sort of change in demand from Asia and the ARB towards Asia opens, then freight rates will skyrocket, and we keep that upside right now. There's no point committing to fixed-term rates, either long-term or short-term in this market. We feel there is a lot of upside if we wait or do this floating for the CAL 27.

All right, super helpful. Have a good weekend.

Thank you.

The next question is from Liam Burke from B Reilly Securities. Please go ahead.

Good afternoon. How are you today?

Hi, Em.

I just had a couple questions on the macro. In the prepared comments, you talked about the steam propulsion LNG vessels being part of the fleet. Only seven have been scrapped this year. It's a much larger percent of the fleet. I would think that the reason they're still there is they're still under contract, and as these contracts get released, global capacity will shrink pretty rapidly.

That's a very fair point, and yes, that is the case. However, we should have seen more scrapping this year because there were re-deliveries from chargers That took place this year. However, there was a Hail Mary being thrown to these vessels with the situation in the Middle East where the insurance risk premium is much lower for vessels like those compared to ours, and they're still being employed for intra-Middle East Gulf business at healthy rates right now. So those vessels have been given a lifeline and an extension to the extent they can actually do this business. And we feel that once the Middle East situation calms down and is resolved, that is, as you said, there will be an accelerated scrapping of those vessels.

Great. And when we were looking at a post-normalization LNG market, I guess referring to slide 13, when and if that occurs, are you comfortable that the LNG production will continue to grow even after the conflict resolution, whenever that occurs, normalizes the LNG industry?

Absolutely. I mean, first of all, slide 13 does not really rely on the current conflict. Most of those volumes and projects have contracted capacity for a long time now and have reached final investment decisions without the conflict. What this conflict has done, and we haven't actually seen so many contracts being signed since the war started, but it has changed The appetite of buyers to switch from Middle East towards the US for security and supply. And that includes a lot of ancient Asian buyers, even the Qataris themselves. So back to your original question, the macro remains very strong for US projects and US capacity. And in general, obviously, we're very bullish LNG as a fuel replacing coal and the green transition And all of these arguments that are still in place is just more of a reallocation within the LNG product heavily skewed towards the U.S. now.

Great. Thank you very much.

Our next question is from Omar Nokta from Clarkson's. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Hey, guys. Good afternoon or good evening. I do have a couple of questions market-related and kind of sticking with the point that you were talking about on slide 12 with the low natural gas inventories in Europe. I just wanted to get a sense or perspective from you. You know, clearly right now when we look at LNG prices, as you were saying, they're up to $35, which is the high for the year, really a multi-year high. And yet inventories are low. Spot rates are also very low for shifts. I'm just trying to get a sense. Do you get a sense that the natural buyers in Europe are just maybe comfortable with the slower level of inventory, or is it more of there just isn't enough LNG flowing, and that's why we're at these low levels of stockpile? And then I guess as we think about that, it seems like something has to give, as you get closer and closer to winter, that as consumption starts to ramp up and inventories are low, does that drive rates higher? Is there enough of LNG flow rates higher in an environment where you have a normal seasonal winter in Europe and the squeeze starts to show up as it gets colder? Just trying to get a sense. Basically, is there a lot of activity in the spot market or is it very quiet? I guess is ultimately the question.

Well, all of these are very fair points. To start with the beginning of your question, if the buyers are feeling comfortable around this, I think the clear answer is depicted in the prices and the answer is no. Nobody's feeling comfortable at $35 per MBTU where Asia keeps buying at those levels and Asian prices are 33. Now, how does this relate to low charter rates? I think it has to do with the fact that the arbitrage to Asia is shut and it has been shut since, let's say, end of August. So for the past two months, the shipping supply side is taking over. And just because there are too many vessels in the Atlantic, the rates are inevitably held at the low level. The key point here, though, is to realize that if anything changes, and we know there are so many different factors that could lead to a reverse in this spread between European and Asia prices, Then we are in for a very, very bullish winter in terms of who will secure the limited amount of vessels that are available in the Atlantic right now. So looking at the curve and pricing the curve, yes, the arbiters will remain shut for the next two or three months. And freight rates and the forward curve on freight rates and FFAs are at 60,000, 70,000 for December. However, this situation is very volatile. And if anything changes, we can see those 60,000 and 70,000 becoming 150,000, 200,000. And we have seen that multiple times in the past. So I don't think anybody's comfortable right now. It's just that nobody wants to pay more than they can on the spot market. But the second that the ARB reverses, you will start seeing investors being fixed for multi-month and even longer at significant premium to where they're trading right now.

Thank you. It does seem like the setup seems very similar to from five years ago, where we saw what was happening in terms of low inventories, high prices, but it basically took until you got to winter for there to be a scream and rates shot up to $200,000 plus. Yeah, I guess maybe just a second.

Sorry, please continue. No, another point that we haven't mentioned so far is that, you know, at let's say $50,000 a day, the freight cost in this cargo economics is minuscule. It means nothing. Like, you know, you have $35 per MBTU sale price in Europe and a freight cost of $1. So you can realize how much freight can increase the second people start seriously competing about vessels to transfer cargoes that are making $25 profit.

Yeah, certainly. And maybe just on that point then, I wanted to ask, obviously in the crude oil market, there's been a lot of shuttling through Hormuz and ship-to-ship transfer to get that crude out into the marketplace. Obviously in LNG, it's a lot more complicated. There have been some reports recently indicating that there's been some small scale of that. Are you able to give a sense or any perspective on what that looks like today? I know it's clearly very complicated, but any thoughts you have, you know, shift-to-shift transfer and shuttling through Hormuz as a viable option in the LNG market?

It is taking place. However, what makes this prohibitive for so far, it hasn't been done so far on modern vessel is the insurance risk premium, which is north of $10 million right now. Whereas when you can do the same business with a 145 steamer, you would be looking at $2 to $3 million cost in terms of insurance. So the preference has been those older smaller ships, even though the boil of cost is significant because the voyage Duration is very small. We're talking about five, six-day voyages. And that is why, back to the point we discussed a bit earlier, those vessels have been given sort of a lifeline this year and are trying to compete for business that is making decent returns for them.

Okay. All right. Thank you. I'll pass it back.

Thank you.

Just a reminder, if you want to ask a question, you can press pound key five on your telephone keypad. This concludes our Q&A session. I'd like to give it back to our hosts.

Okay, well, thank you, everybody. Thanks for taking the time to join our call today and speak to you going forward. Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's presentation. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your line. Have a great day.