PennyMac Financial Services, Inc. (PFSI) Q3 2026 Earnings Call Transcript

Their relentless dedication and their enduring passion for our business. Both served in critical leadership positions guiding PennyMac through dynamic market cycles and helping transform our organization into the premier mortgage company it is today. Their countless contributions have shaped our foundation, and they will be greatly missed. Having said that, we have an exceptional leadership team and a deep bench of talent that is fully prepared to lead PennyMac into its next chapter. I have absolute confidence in this management team's ability to carry our strategy forward seamlessly while driving long-term value for our stockholders. Turning now to our third quarter results on slide three, PennyMac Financial generated $29 million of net income, or $0.54 in diluted earnings per share, representing a 3% annualized return on equity. Adjusted net income was $56 million, or $1.05 per share, for a 5% adjusted return on equity, down slightly from the prior quarter. Our production segment recorded a pre-tax loss in the third quarter, driven by three primary factors. First, revenues declined significantly as fallout adjusted lock volumes were down across each of our channels in response to higher mortgage rates. Second, while production expenses came down, they declined at a slower rate than revenues. Production expenses are largely driven by funded unit volume rather than locks, and throughout the quarter, we were still processing and funding higher volume loan pipelines established under the prior, more favorable interest rate environment. And third, we have not yet fully realized the full impact of previously announced cost reductions. Servicing segment pre-tax income in the third quarter was $99 million. Excluding MSR fair value changes net of hedging, servicing segment pre-tax income was $132 million, up from $99 million in the prior quarter, primarily driven by lower realization of MSR cash flows and an increase in loan servicing fees, Partially offset by lower interest income from custodial balances and EBO loan-related income. Slide four illustrates the constrained origination environment we are currently operating in. The primary 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rose more than 90 basis points from June 30th, ending the quarter at approximately 7.4%. This sharp increase in mortgage rates has impacted the housing market and has driven significantly lower origination demand, particularly for borrowers looking to refinance into a lower rate. According to secondary market data, industry-wide rate and term agency deliveries have declined approximately 80% from the first quarter of this year. And as you can see by the current distribution by agency mortgages by coupon, less than 1% of homeowners currently possess an incentive greater than 50 basis points to refinance. All of this has created one of the most constrained origination environments our industry has seen since 2023, when rates sharply increased in response to high inflation as we emerge from COVID. Although the origination market remains challenging, higher rates have driven prepayment speeds down to very low levels. This has caused our servicing business to continue to produce strong operating profitability as amortization has declined and fee income has increased. This dynamic highlights the natural hedge embedded in our balanced business model and the power of our large servicing portfolio. Turning now to slide five for key business updates, first, we continue to make progress on the acquisition of SEMLAR subservicing business and now expect the transition to close in the first quarter of 2027. Second, given a smaller projected origination market and the realization of efficiencies due to technology, we are completing additional aggressive and proactive expense reduction initiatives, which we project will result in $160 million of annualized expense reductions from the second quarter of 2026 to the first quarter of 2027. We expect a modest sequential reduction from the third to the fourth quarter of this year, followed by a much more pronounced step-down in the first quarter of 2027, as these initiatives fully run right. While these actions reflect necessary staffing and operational reductions in response to a smaller origination market, significant process improvements driven by our continued technology enhancements have given us confidence in our ability to address our customers' needs, even if rates were to meaningfully decline. And after quarter end, we entered into an agreement to sell $29 billion in UPB of low-coupon MSRs with an expected close in the fourth quarter. Net proceeds of approximately $490 million will primarily be used to pay down outstanding debt, lowering financing costs. I would also note we maintain an active share repurchase authorization from our Board of Directors. Given where our common shares have traded relative to book value, and as we've done historically, we will continue to opportunistically utilize our share repurchase authorization to create long-term value for our stockholders. Turning to slide six and looking ahead, while the near term presents cyclical origination market headwinds, we are aggressively executing on structural initiatives to permanently lower our cost structure and position PennyMac appropriately for the size of the market we're currently operating. Given the smaller origination market and the ongoing execution of our expense adjustments through year-end, fourth-quarter adjusted ROE is expected to remain near current levels. Turning to slide seven, we continue to rapidly accelerate AI automation across our origination business. Across our production workflows, process automation has progressed meaningfully, with 37% live in production and the remaining 28% currently in development expected to be completed by year end. Our automation efforts will continue into 2027, focused primarily on advancing our AI voice agent capabilities and deploying AI agents into our broker direct channel once live on our next generation loan origination system. We have already developed 22 proprietary AI agents that are live in production, which have completed more than 205,000 automated agent executions and over 200,000 automated document reviews, with an additional 17 agents currently in the development pipeline. Our proprietary AI voice agent is already driving meaningful origination volume. In the third quarter alone, it supported more than 15,000 transfers and contributed to over 1,600 rate logs. Just as importantly, this voice agent provides us the ability to rapidly add capacity to meet the demand generated by a market rally, enabling borrower self-service and thereby reducing hold times and lost sales opportunities. By automating labor-intensive fulfillment workflows, we are permanently lowering our cost to produce and uncoupling platform capacity from staffing requirements. This will allow us to maintain lean operation in today's constrained environment while ensuring substantial operating leverage when origination volumes normalize. Turning to slide eight, this highlights the opportunity in our consumer direct channel when interest rates decline, as well as the meaningful improvement in our first lean refinance recapture rates in recent periods. As of September 30th, we serviced a combined $355 billion in UPB of loans with note rates above 5%, of which more than 60%, or approximately $220 billion in UPB, had note rates above 6%. As shown on the right, our first-link recapture rate remained near record highs at 44%, up 9 percentage points from the prior year. The slight decline from the prior quarter reflects a broader market shift towards more credit-sensitive cash-outs versus rate and term refinances, where we can traditionally see our highest conversion rates. Given the size of our servicing portfolio, our technology foundation, and our accelerating recapture trends, we are highly convinced in our ability to execute on this opportunity, driving towards our long-term ROE targets when interest rates do decline. Now, I'd like to introduce our current Chief Strategy Officer and incoming CFO, Kevin Ryan.

Thank you, David. I am honored and excited to assume the CFO role here at PennyMac, and I want to thank David and the board for their trust and confidence. I also want to express my sincere gratitude to Dan. Over his years of leadership, Dan has built an exceptional world-class finance organization and established a remarkably resilient balance sheet. He and I will be working closely together over the coming months to ensure continuity and a seamless operational handoff. Having spent the past year leading our corporate strategy and business development initiatives, I've had the privilege of working alongside our leaders in production, servicing, and technology. Bringing finance, strategy, and business development together under one umbrella allows us to tightly integrate our long-term vision with real-time capital allocation and financial execution. In challenging environments like the one we are navigating today, our priorities are clear. Maintain rigorous cost discipline across the enterprise. Allocate capital dynamically to the highest risk-adjusted return opportunities, and leverage our scale and proprietary technology to permanently drive down unit costs across our platform. I look forward to engaging directly with our stockholders and the broader investment community in the months ahead. And with that, I will now turn the call over to Dan, who will review the drivers of PFSI's third quarter financial performance.

Thank you, Kevin. Thank you. Thank you. Down 30% from the prior quarter, and 33% from the third quarter of last year. The revenue contribution from the correspondent channel was down $6 million from the prior quarter. This decline was driven by lower production volume, as the origination market was impacted by higher interest rates. In addition, we have maintained our pricing discipline, not chasing loan volume priced around aggressive recapture assumptions that we don't feel comfortable underwriting. Also, correspondent lending remains competitive, with the GSEs remaining active through their cash window, alongside other industry participants competing aggressively on price. Our priority remains allocating capital prudently and preserving margin discipline. In October, correspondent volumes are expected to be in line with average third-quarter levels. In BrokerDirect, revenue contribution was down $23 million from the prior quarter. The channel remains competitive, with Fall Out Adjusted Locks down 28% and margins down 12 basis points from the prior quarter. Volumes in October are down slightly from the average third quarter levels as a result of higher mortgage rates. The revenue contribution from our Consumer Direct channel declined $40 million from the prior quarter, as higher interest rates resulted in lower refinance demand. Fall Out Adjusted Lock volumes were down 37% from the prior quarter due to the sharp increase in mortgage rates. Margins were up to 335 basis points from 300 basis points in the prior quarter, reflecting a higher proportion of closed-end second lien production versus first liens. Secondary market impacts across the channels resulted in a $5 million pre-tax loss compared to $7 million of pre-tax loss in the prior quarter. Of note, on slide 11, prior period amounts have been recast to conform to our current period presentation. The line previously titled Post-Lock Impacts and Other has been changed to Secondary Market Impacts to isolate pure pipeline hedging, valuation changes, and secondary execution items. As part of this presentation update, certain execution items previously captured in this line item have now been attributed directly to each respective channel. While this recasts historical channel margins, our total production revenues, expenses, and pre-tax income remain unchanged. Production expenses, net of loan origination expense, decreased 11% from the prior quarter due to previously announced reductions in capacity and lower volumes. Turning to the servicing segment, on Slides 12 and 13, our total servicing portfolio, UPD, ended the quarter at $737 billion, up slightly from the end of the prior quarter. The servicing segment recorded pre-tax income of $99 million. Excluding MSR fair value changes net of hedging, pre-tax income was $132 million, or 7.3 basis points of average servicing portfolio UPV, up from $99 million, or 5.5 basis points in the prior quarter. Servicing fees were up from the prior quarter, primarily due to growth in the MSR portfolio. Realized prepayment speeds were 8.1%, down from 11.6% in the prior quarter. This decline resulted in a 15% reduction in the realization of MSR cash flows and also drove lower average custodial balances and related earnings. Income from EBO activities was down $20 million from the prior Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. On slide 14, including the provision for losses on active loans, the fair value of PFSI's MSR increased by $930 million. An increase of $951 million was due to changes in market interest rates, and $21 million of declines was due to other model and performance-related impacts. Hedge fair value losses, including principal-only bond accretion changes, were $964 million. Read impacts accounted for $946 million of losses, while hedge costs were $18 million, down from $52 million last quarter, and more in line with our long-term targets. Corporate and other items recorded a pre-tax loss of $49 million, compared to $29 million in the prior quarter. The prior quarter included $9 million of valuation-related gains related to our minority interest in VESTA. On slide 15, total debt to equity at quarter end was three and a half times, down slightly from the end of the prior quarter, and non-funding debt to equity was 1.9 times, up from 1.8 times at the end of the prior quarter. The increase in non-funding leverage was driven by higher interest rates, which increased the utilization of our secured MSR facilities. To provide some context on how this dynamic operates, our MSR portfolio is financed through secured bank facilities where our borrowing base is driven by the collateral value of the underlying asset. When interest rates rise sharply, as they did throughout the third quarter, the fair value of our MSR increases, which expands our available borrowing capacity with our banking partners. At the same time, because we maintain a disciplined near 100% hedge, our derivative hedge Thank you. On a more personal note, I want to take a moment to express my sincere gratitude to David, our Board of Directors, and my colleagues for their trust, partnership, and shared dedication throughout my time at PennyMap. I'm extraordinarily proud of what we've accomplished in my 18 years with the company and my six years in the CFO role, and in particular, I'm proud of the world-class finance organization and the resilient balance sheet we have built. Having worked alongside Kevin for the past year, I have the utmost confidence in his leadership and vision to steer our financial and strategic execution going forward as he assumes the CFO role. And finally, to our shareholders and the investment community, thank you for your thoughtful engagement, rigorous questions, and constructive partnership over the years. It's been a privilege working with you. And now we'll open it up for questions. Operator?

We will now begin the question and answer session. I would like to remind everyone we will only take questions related to PennyMac Financial Services Incorporated, or PFSI. We also ask that you please keep your questions limited to one preliminary question and one follow-up question, as we'd like to ensure we can answer as many questions as possible. If you would like to ask a question during this time, please raise your hand. If you have dialed in to today's call, please press star followed by the Number one to raise your hand. And if you'd like to withdraw your question, press star one again. We ask that you pick up your handset when asking a question to allow for optimum sound quality. If you are muted locally, please remember to unmute your device. Please stand by while we compile the Q&A roster. Your first question comes from the line of Crispin Love with Piper Sandler. Your line is open. Please go ahead. Crispin, your line is open. You may be muted locally. Your next question comes from the line of Doug Harder with BTIG. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Thanks. I'm hoping we could talk a little bit more about the MSR sale and kind of how you're thinking about what is the target level for leverage. And, you know, I guess on that MSR sale, are you retaining subservicing on that?

Sure, Doug. Hey, this is Dan. Thanks for the question. In terms of the MSR sale, as we mentioned, utilizing, we're expecting to utilize the majority of the proceeds to pay down our outstanding MSR or some of our outstanding MSR debt. But with respect to overall leverage, as we've talked about before, non-funding leverage, you know, generally have targeted being closer to one and a half times. We don't, you know, we expect to move toward that level over time, not necessarily all in, you know, in one chunk. The paydown of this debt will contribute to moving our leverage lower, and as we said on the call, we expect our leverage to move lower quarter over quarter. The other factor, as we talked about on the call, is that our non-funding leverage will fluctuate up and down initially as we see interest rates move up and down due to the dynamic of our hedge and utilizing our funding facilities to fund any cash requirements that we have. Due to changes in interest rates, we saw interest rates increase really sharply at the end of Q4, and that helped to drive up our leverage ratio slightly. We've seen a rally since then, and that is moving our leverage ratio in the opposite direction. And, you know, so overall, over the next few quarters, we expect to bring down our leverage ratio from the levels that it is at today through a combination of, you know, the MSR sale and deploying some of that cash, as well as we see interest rates, you know, decline somewhat and utilizing the earnings from our business to bring overall leverage down. Great.

And then I guess just, are you retaining subservicing on this sale? And how do you think about additional sales?

We're not retaining subservicing on this sale. That is an opportunity that we see potentially in future sales, but not with this particular sale. As we are looking at the market overall and our capital position, as well as opportunities, we'll continue to look at potential opportunities for MSR sales, but it's not necessarily something that we expect to be a consistent strategy. It's our evaluation of our capital position versus opportunities that we see, as well as our overall leverage level and And in our trajectory, with respect to that.

And Doug, this is David. I just want to add, this is one of the benefits that we get from the SINLAR acquisition in the fact that, you know, we have obvious scale on the platform. And by adding the Sennlar portfolio, we'll be increasing that scale, which gives us flexibility to strategically sell MSRs, you know, when the opportunity presents itself and the market, you know, environment necessitates, in my mind, an MSR sale. So this is the flexibility that we're excited about, and we're going to continue to strategically look at the market in terms of looking at MSRs. Perhaps these are low-rate MSRs. They don't exactly fit what we want in terms of the flywheel and the future opportunity, and there's an active market for these. So, it was a good transaction all the way around. Great.

Thank you.

Your next question comes from the line of Trevor Cranston with Citizens JMP. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Hi. Thanks. And congratulations to everyone on the career transitions. Looking at the consumer direct channel specifically, I was wondering if you could provide a little color on, you know, within 3Q numbers, kind of how much of the volume there came from second lean volume in 3Q and kind of where you expect overall volume within the consumer direct channel to kind of stabilize assuming rates stay around the current level. Thanks.

Look, so obviously, we had more of a proportion of our production coming in second-game volume. You know, the fundings in Q3 and Consumer Direct were approximately $3.3 billion, of which approximately $700 million of it was closed in seconds. And that number, you know, is staying pretty consistent in the market today. You know, year over year, we were up in consumer direct. But, you know, right now, the focus on consumer direct is on cash outs and closed-end seconds, given the fact that rates are at the level where rate and term refinance is not really in the money. You know, in addition, we added the HELOC product into our Consumer Direct channel. We launched that over the past couple of weeks, and so that's something that we're looking forward to being able to offer to our consumers as well.

Okay, that's helpful. And then, you know, in the commentary, it sounded like you guys were seeing some competitive pressure on margins in the Broker Direct channel. Can you maybe provide an update on what you're seeing in the early part of 4Q and how you expect that to evolve given the increased competition for loans?

Thanks. You know, we maintain a really disciplined approach to pricing. And as it pertains to where we value MSRs in our pricing model, you know, obviously, it involves evaluation process of looking loan level characteristics, looking at FICO, LTV, repayment speeds, there's a recapture component to it. And we're just seeing some valuations in terms of competitors that don't meet our return targets. And so we want to be market leaders. We want to stay disciplined in our pricing and how we price. And in particular, we want to be, on the government side, really mindful of the fact that there's a few executions out there that require a very large servicing investment on strip sizes north of 50 basis points that, again, don't really pan out when you look at the recapture opportunities. So I think that's the story on the government side. On the conventional side, we're seeing a little bit, we're seeing more than a little bit. We're seeing a good amount of pressure from the GSE cash window execution being offered to smaller broker originators. And so we're staying very competitive with the top two in the industry, and they're in various ways staying aggressive as well. But we're picking and choosing our spots and, you know, while maintaining market share and not really getting too caught up in market share at levels that are just not sustainable or that one can rationalize.

I appreciate the comments. Thank you.

Your next question comes from the line of Bose George with KBW. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Hey, guys. Good afternoon. And Dan, it's been a pleasure working with you over the years. Actually, first question, just on the guidance that you guys gave, so just to clarify, so that's a 5% expectation for 4Q, and then where do you see that trending in 2027, assuming the market remains flat?

Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Boz. I'll lead off with this, and I'm sure Dan or Kevin will comment afterwards. But look, we're in a very challenging origination market with higher interest rates. And, you know, I think, you know, right now we are right-sizing our production channel and, you know, trying to maintain a level of profitability in Q4. Obviously, we're able to offset that with the continued decline in amortization. And so many of the actions we're taking this quarter won't run right until early next year. And as you know, with respect to 2027, obviously, the origination market is expected to decline. You know, we're seeing forecasts in the NBA and Fannie Mae, bringing it down to 1.9 trillion. Right now, we're running a little bit lighter than that in terms of the run rate. We have taken aggressive actions to right-size the business appropriately. From Q2 of 26 to January 1 of 27, it'll be $160 million of annualized reductions. And, you know, most of that is going to come through in Q4. The tech spend is coming off of peak levels. We're reducing our tech spend, and we're continuing to see further efficiency gains because of the investments we're making. And so as I think about the bridge from Q426 to Q427, I'm expecting us to be at low double digits by Q427. And if you start out at the 5% level where we're at today, there's about 3.5 points that are going to come out of servicing, primarily at these levels because of the reduction in speeds and the lower amortization, the increase in net interest income, and then bringing on CENLAR in the back half of the year. We're expecting another two points to come from the OPEX reductions that we've made in the second half of 26 and getting a full run rate of those. And then there's going to be another one to two points coming out of our production channels, primarily coming out of the implementation of Vesta and BrokerDirect, the deployment of the AI agents in ConsumerDirect that will be replicated in BrokerDirect. And then just some increase in pricing strategies and executions that we have been identifying in this period of time as we're seeing a very healthy bid for conventional production away from the GSEs into the whole market. So all that adds up when you bridge it to the low double digits, and that's at current market levels. Obviously, if rates decline, you'd see a different market where production volume increases would yield greater profitability in production, offset to some extent to a little bit with an increase in amortization.

Yeah, Booz, it's Kevin. I'll add to that quickly, which is, as David said, we're assuming a mortgage market next year that's smaller than $1.9 trillion, certainly smaller than 2026 is likely to finish up, and we're focused on the things we can control. Most of what David went through was ZENLAR, NAI, expense reductions, and we're already at $160,000, and we're not done yet on expense reductions. And so we're not bullish on the market. We are bullish on, you know, self-help and what we can do to drive down costs and get ourselves back to those types of returns.

Your next question comes from the line of Don Fandetti with Wells Fargo. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Hi. Look, it's a tough mortgage market. It's a scale business. I'm just curious if, you know, as you look out over the landscape and all the tech investment, you know, do you feel like you guys have the right scale or do you need to consider something, some strategic alternatives maybe that are a little more dramatic? Or do you feel like you can kind of compete with the likes of Maybe some of the larger players in the business.

Look, I feel really good about what we have here, you know, in the organization. You know, we have, we're about to complete our 19th year. I think our track record is well known and our ability to adapt in the cyclical market that you rightfully talk about today is something that is a trademark of the organization. I think what I'm really excited about is the fact that as rates do come down, and they will come down, I feel really good about the position we're in, being able to attack the demand that's going to come about without having to scurry about to add people or other infrastructure. And so, you know, we're really taking advantage of this period of time where rates are at these elevated levels to move quickly to complete the work on the loan origination side to be able to deal with any increase in production. Look, I think that the market is a tough one. I think you're going to continue to see consolidation in the market. But I think we have, if you think about capital position, you think about what we built here with a leading correspondent aggregator, with a number three broker direct lender, our recap numbers are above 40% at levels that we have not seen in the history of the company. We're really positioned really well to take advantage of any decrease in rates that come about on the production side. And likewise, on the servicing side, we're just continuing to get more and more efficient. And that scale is going to be a real benefit to us as we strategically address what the portfolio is.

Yeah, remember, Don, we're going to be over a trillion in servicing when we close SENDLAR. We're at scale.

Got it. Okay. Thanks for the thoughts. Thanks, Paul.

Your next question comes from the line of Crispin Love with Piper Sandler. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Am I coming through now? Yep. Yep. Hi, Crispin. It's Steve. Okay. Hey, how are you doing? Apologies for that earlier. David, on capacity, on a comment that you just made, It seems like you wouldn't need to add significant capacity if rates did rally. Is that fair, and is that because of the tech initiatives that you're taking right now? I'm just curious if I'm thinking about that correctly.

Yeah, look, we, I'm not going to say we're going to have to, we're going to have, you know, we'll be at zero. Because there's always a client who wants a human in the loop. Having said that, the human in the loop becomes less and less prevalent in terms of the refinancing of a mortgage. And even more importantly, on the processing side, the human in the loop has been greatly reduced. And so from my perspective, the amount of ads we're going to have to do in, you know, I was looking at, you were looking yesterday, like 100 basis point rally, it's less than 100 people across the consumer direct channel, when historically, that number would have been multiples. And so I feel really good about what we're building. And look, the longer rates stay where they are, and you have capacity to lead the system, that's going to further lend itself for greater margin, margin increases as well in a rally. And so I think we're positioned really well to be able to deal with anything that comes our way.

Great. Thank you. That's helpful. And then on the SEDMAR deal, can you talk about plans for the bank charter once the deal closes? Is that something that you're able to sell? Because I don't believe you're retaining it. Just if you can provide any color for the bank charter and just what's possible with that, that'd be great. Thank you.

Yeah, Chris, and it's Kevin. We, and I think we talked about this in previous calls, we've done a lot of work on retaining it. I think a combination of, it's been, FASIL 3 has been slow to get implemented, although we're supportive of the likely changes in MSRs. And, you know, they've got 100 clients that are great clients, and we've got the lowest cost of service in the industry, so we want to get those loans on our platform as quickly as possible. So our plan is to close the deal in Q1, X the bank charter. We're working, Dan's really leading an effort to work with Sandler's management to dispose of the deposits of that bank charter, and that bank charter will just, you know, relinquish, and we'll close the deal.

Great. Thank you, and congratulations on the new role, Kevin. Thank you.

Your next question comes from the line of Ryan Shelley with Bank of America. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Thanks for the question. Just following up on the similar acquisition, it looks like timing has slipped a bit into one queue of next year. Could you just give everyone a reminder on what approvals you still need and if there's any customer transfer? Hey, Ryan, can you speak up?

Hey, Ryan, can you start from the top and speak up, please?

Yeah, is that better? Okay. Sorry about that. Yeah, just on Sennlar, just a quick follow-up. It looks like the timing has slipped a little bit into early next year. Can you just remind us of what approvals are still needed and if there's any potential that you can see that slip further?

Yeah, Ryan, it's Kevin. We heard you this time. We have basically all approvals except for one state. You can likely guess which state that is. It's generally slow in almost every transaction. We feel very good about where we are as far as getting that approval. And then we're just working with the OCC, as we said to the last question, on getting the deposits transferred. So we feel very comfortable in that Q1 timing. It took more time to study the bank, right? So part of the slowdown was self-imposed.

Understood. Thank you. And then just one more on leverage. It sounds like you should expect leverage to kick down next quarter, especially after this MSR sale. So, given the environment, can we generally expect next year you guys to aim to operate closer to that 1.5 target? And to get there, could we see future sales potentially of MSRs in the book? Thanks.

Yeah, look, I'll start, and Dan may want to jump in. As David mentioned, this is opportunistic. We're going to be over a trillion in servicing post-Sanlar. We're clearly at scale. There's a strong bid in the market, particularly amongst banks for low note rate servicing, where there's not a big recapture opportunity, and the portfolio we're selling looks a bit like that. And so we can sell MSRs and look at leverage. Leverage has come down, as Dan mentioned before, just organically over the last two weeks as the 10-year is sitting at rates lower than where we closed the quarter. So we have levers to pull. We have a lot of liquidity, and we certainly have levers to pull as it relates to leverage.

Yeah, and I would, you know, consistent with what I talked about earlier, you know, we continue to evaluate potential MSR sales, but as Kevin said, you know, there's nothing necessarily in the, you know, in the pipeline in terms of sales currently, and it's something that we continue to evaluate in terms of our capital options as to what can optimize both leverage as well as returns. Thanks for the time, guys.

Thanks, Ryan.

Your next question comes from the line with Anna Shue with Barclays. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Thanks for taking my question. I know on the call, Dan mentioned that the MSR facility commitment to increase with the improvement in the MSR fair value that was offset by the debt increase to fund the hedge requirement. Overall, it looks like net liquidity declined by $500 million to $3.5 billion, which I think is on the lower end of where you guys have run at in the past few years. Is this something that we should think of as a minimal level of liquidity? Are you guys thinking about any kind of liquidity risks that might materialize for the industry? Maybe beyond just servicing advances.

So our liquidity planning process and scenario planning process around liquidity is very robust. You know, we have a weekly discipline where we are looking out at a 12-month, over a 12-month horizon that includes shocks to both interest rates and the, you know, potential impacts of liquidity from that, as we discussed on the call, And how that can impact liquidity with respect to hedges, as well as a potential significant delinquency shock, as we saw in the shock that we use is similar to what we saw during COVID and what the impact of that would be if prepayments in a slower prepayment speed environment. So where P&I advances are also significantly impacted. And as we're looking at the sizing of our facilities and our available liquidity, even in those scenarios, we still have excess liquidity for the combination of those two types of shocks. The overall liquidity level that we're looking at, as you said, is on the lower end of where we've been historically. Obviously, that has expanded as we've rallied down a little bit and had a reversal of what we saw in Q3 or at the end of Q3 with respect to interest rates. To the extent that we, you know, needed additional, as we're looking at our liquidity planning, needed additional, you know, facility availability. We have, you know, very significant amounts of MSR collateral to be able to borrow against. That is an excess of our current commitments. In other words, the liquidity that we show there is with relation to the current sizes of our facilities. And to the extent that, you know, we saw liquidity or potential liquidity decline further below the thresholds that we would need to be able to fund, you know, advances in a shock scenario or, you know, combined with a significant interest rate shock, you know, would look to expand our liquidity further. So that overall, with respect to the current levels, as you said, we generally would expect that to be on the lower end of what we would see given our overall liquidity planning, or at least given the current size of the portfolio. But to the extent that we needed to increase that or saw a different shock, we have plenty of collateral to be able to expand our facilities.

Great. Thank you. And then I know you mentioned you guys were opportunistically selling MSRs. So I'm assuming that we should expect to book a gain on MSR sales in fourth quarter.

We are not expecting to book a game. We've sold the MSR portfolio near, you know, inconsistent with our mark. So when you see the results in the fourth quarter, it will come through as, you know, normal fair value changes. Not something that's a specific gain on sale, but the sale was consistent with where we have the portfolio mark.

There are no further questions at this time. I will now turn the call back to David Spector for closing remarks.

Thank you, Operator, and thank you all for joining us this afternoon. I encourage investors with additional questions to contact our investor relations team by email or phone, and thanks again for the time and the good questions today.

This concludes today's call. Thank you for attending. You may now disconnect.