Kingsoft Cloud Holdings Ltd (KC) Q4 2025 Earnings Call Transcript

Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Kingsoft Cloud's fourth quarter and full year 2025 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question and answer session. To ask a question during the session, you will need to press star 1 and 1 on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message advising your hand is raised. To withdraw your question, please press star 1 and 1 again. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Nicole Shan, IRD of Kingsoft Cloud. Please go ahead.

Thank you, operator. Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. Kingsoft Cloud's fourth quarter and fiscal year 2025 only released was distributed earlier today, and is available on our IR website at ir.ksyun.com, as well as on PR Newsware's services. On the call today from Kingsoft Cloud, we have our chairman and CEO, Mr. Zoutao, therefore Ms. Ziyi, Senior Vice President, Mr. Liu Tao, Senior Vice President, Mr. Tian Kaiyan, Vice President, Ms. Wang Shuang, and Associate Vice President, Mr. Kaatian. Ms. Zou will review our business strategies, operations, and other company highlights. followed by Ms. Li, who will discuss the financial performance. They will be available to answer your questions during the Q&A session that follows. There will be consultative interpretation. Our interpretations are for your convenience and reference purpose only. In case of any discrepancy, management statement in the original language will prevail. Before we begin, I'd like to remind you that this conference call contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 21E of the Security Exchange Act of 1934 as a mandate as defending the U.S. private security litigation reform act of 1995. These forward-looking statements are based upon management's current expectations and the current market and operating conditions. And relate to events that involve known or unknown risks, uncertainties, and other factors, of which are difficult to predict and many of which are beyond the company's control, which may cause the company's actual results, performance, or achievements to differ maturely from those in the forward-looking statements. Further information regarding these and other risk uncertainties or factors are included in the company's filings with the USSEC. The company does not undertake any obligation to update any forward-looking statements as a result of new information, future events. Unless other information during this conference call, I did not mean in RMB.

It's now my pleasure to introduce our chairman CEO. 大家好,欢迎参加金山云2025年第四季度及全年业绩电话会,我是金山云CEO周涛,2025年初以来,全球AI行业迎来了一系列里程碑的事件,从DeepSeek时刻的普惠,到多模态搜查模型,你追我感的极致表现, 从巨神智能突飞猛进跨入物理世界 到OpenCloud的自主理点执行闭环 AI正以不可阻挡之势多点进化 串联起从模型智能体算力到产业落地的脉络 乘数千行百页 云计算作为AI五层蛋糕的高度偶合的组成部分 正承接前所未有的膨大资算需求 2025年金山云继续走高质量可持续发展道路 在air浪潮中拥抱机遇 在实干中收获成长 取得了财务业绩表现和业务能力沉淀的双丰收 成绩非然 首先 我们四季度收入达27.6亿元 再创历史新高 同比增长24% 其中 龚有云同比大幅增长35% 收入达19亿元 自善业务继续发力 驱动强势增长 四季度账单收入达9.3亿元 同比增长95% 占公有云收入比例达49% 其次 生态内外业务增长齐头并进 一方面 生态合作稳固并不断深化 本季度来自小米金山生态的收入达8亿元 同比增长63% 但总收入比例进一步提升至29% 2025年全年我们与小米和金山关联交易低进额度内上限达94% 另一方面生态外客户同样认可我们的产品服务 其占总收入比例超过70% 覆盖众多高增长行业的领军企业 我们前五大非生态客户的收入同比增长达44% 保持强劲增长时刻 最后盈利水平继续提升 本季度经调整毛利率环比提升至17.1% 经调整经营利润率2.0% 再次实现了经营层面的盈利

公司造成能力同比持续显著提升 Hello everyone and thank you and welcome to Kingsoft Cloud's fourth quarter and fiscal year 2025 earnings call. I am Zotow CEO of Kingsoft Cloud. Since the beginning of 2025, the global AI industry has reached a series of milestones. From the democratization sparked by the DeepSeek moment, to the active competition among multimodal software models. From the leap of embodied AI into the physical world, to open-class close-to-loop capability of understanding and execution, AI is evolving with unstoppable momentum, linking across models, agents, computing power to industrial applications, reshaping every sector. As a tightly integrated component of the AI five-layer take, cloud computing is now meeting an unprecedented surge in demand for intelligent computing. This year, we stayed committed to our high-quality and sustainable development strategy, embracing the opportunities in AI era, strengthening our capability through solid execution. We have delivered impressive results, achieving strong financial performance while forging lasting business strength. We recorded a historical high quarterly revenue, reaching R&B 2.76 billion, representing a year-over-year growth of 24%, among which revenues from public cloud services increased by 35% to R&B 1.9 billion. Our intelligent computing services keep driving our growth. The growth building of AI business reached R&B 926 million, representing a 95% year-over-year and contributing 49% of our public cloud services. Second, growth in our ecosystem and external business segment is progressing hand-in-hand. On one hand, our ecosystem partnerships remain strong and continue to deepen. This quarter, Xiaomi and Tingshop ecosystem revenue reached R&B $804 million, a 63% year-over-year increase, accounting for 29% of total revenue. For the full year 2025, related party transactions with Xiaomi and Kinsang ecosystem partners reached 94% of our annual cap, almost hitting the limit. On the other hand, our external customers, including leading enterprises across a wide range of high growth industries, also shown confidence in our products and services, accounting for around 70% of total revenue. Furthermore, revenue from our top five non-ecosystem customers grew by 44% year over year, sustaining strong growth momentum. Last but not least, profitability continued to improve this quarter, with adjusted growth margin increasing quarter over quarter to 17.1% and adjusted operating margin reaching 2.0%.

We have achieved operating level profitability two quarters in a row. and our self-funding capability has shown sustained and significant year-over-year improvement. 使得我们的客户基础更加多元,不仅包括头部的AI企业和互联网厂商,也广泛服务车企、自驾、巨身智能、金融科技等新兴行员的自算需求。 不仅牢牢把握小米金山生态内多样化的业务需求,也在生态外开疆拓土,斩货商机。 产品服务角度,我们持续突破集群规模上线,交付大规模自算集群服务,助力重点客户的大模型训练,与爆发式的推理需求。 本季度,我们交付的某头部互联网视频客户推理信息群,以实现覆盖其AI业务超一亿用户。 我们新签约头部互联网加的金融客户,为其提供按Token用量付费的推理场景服务,以稳定的模型及算列服务得到客户的认可。 供应链角度,面对供应链市场的不确定性,我们凭借多年深耕达到的稳健供应链体系,前瞻性的进行布局,动态进行关键核心部件的备货,为我们的业务增长保价护航。 行业云方面,本季度实现收入8.6亿元,环比大幅增长18%,在人工智能家的政策驱动下,产业智能解决方案成为行业发展的主要驱动。 垂直行业对于模型的专业性 在真实业务场景中的实用性 以及数据合规的高要求 也使得云服务在推进产业智能化的进程中更为必要 行业云的AI推动行稳资源 不仅有万亿市场的潜力 同时对于技术推动产业的全面跃进至关重要 金山云作为技术,有技术,有经验,有服务能力的突避领域云服务厂商,定将把握产业机遇。 企业服务领域,我们实现了自算业务在高端制造核心场景的关键落地,为行业顶级的龙头企业客户,在智能制造,工业视觉,AI研发,提供稳定高效的算力服务支撑。 数字健康领域,我们正式发布了基于Data Agent架构的医疗智能运营管理AI应用,标志着公司医疗大数据服务完成了从数字化向智能化的范式跨越,构建了可验证,可审计的医疗数据分析新标准, 支持用户以自然语言直观洞察疾病诊断相关分组的DRG控费 营收波动等核心指标根因真正实现了对话及分析 该平台将医院管理从事后统计升级为事前干预 事前预测与事中干预 在大幅降低数据应用门槛的同时 进一步巩固了公司在医疗AI高价值场景中的技术壁垒 与差异化竞争优势 在公共服务领域 本季度我们在正企智算领域与运营商进行合作 结合双方的资源与技术优势 提供长期稳定的高性能算力集成服务

快速泄露到上海等核心地区的正企制算市场 我们相信 平贴经营云在垂直行业的专业能力和企业服务的经验沉淀 行业云制算机会同样是巨大的产业机会 以公有云互联网行业协同共进 Now, I would like to walk you through the key business highlights for the fourth quarter of 2025 In terms of public cloud services, revenue reached RMB $1.9 billion this quarter, representing a year-over-year increase of 35%. From a customer perspective, in 2025, AI continued pushing its boundaries, driving industries to fully embrace it, diversifying our customer base. Beyond leading AI enterprises and Internet giants, we now also serve automotive manufacturing, autonomous driving, embodied AI, and fintech sectors, et cetera. We've solidified our cooperation within the Xiaomi and Kingsoft ecosystem while capturing new external opportunities. From product and services perspective, we keep pushing the limits of cluster scale, supporting large scale training and explosive inference demands. Notably in this quarter, we delivered a new inference cluster but top video streaming platform, serving over 100 million users. We also secured a major fintech customer using our token-based inference service, who speak highly of our stable model and computing power services. On supply chain fronts, despite market uncertainties, our well-established and resilient supply chain, built through years of experience, allowed us to plan ahead strategically and stock keep components dynamically to ensure sustainable business growth. Now, in terms of enterprise cloud, revenue reached RMB 859 million this quarter, a significant quarter-over-quarter increase of 18%. Driven by the AI Plus policy, industrial intelligence solutions have become a key growth driver. The demand for specialized vertical models, real-world application, and strict data compliance makes cloud services more essential than ever in advancing industrial intelligence. The AI business of enterprise cloud is paving the way for steady, long-term growth, not only representing a trillion-dollar market opportunity, but also playing a critical role in driving the technological leap across industries. As a B2B cloud service provider with solid technology expertise and enterprise service capabilities, we are well-positioned to capture these industrial transformation opportunities. In the area of enterprise services, we achieved key breakthroughs in high-end manufacturing industry. We provided stable and high-performance computing service to the top enterprises to support their process in intelligent manufacturing, industrial vision, and AI R&D. In healthcare space, we launched a data agent-based AI application in healthcare intelligence operation process, marking a paradigm shift from digitalization to intelligence. Analysis through natural dialogue platform enables natural language insights into DRG cost control, moving hospital management from retrospective statistics to proactive intervention. While significantly lowering the barriers to data application, we have further solidified our technical modes and differentiated competitive advantages in high-value medical AI scenarios. In public services area, we partnered with telecom operators to provide sustainable and stable high-performance computing cluster for the public services sector, successfully entering key markets like Shanghai.

We believe that by leveraging Kingsoft Cloud's deep vertical expertise and enterprise service experience, intelligent computing opportunities in the enterprise cloud segment represents a massive industrial frontier, generating synergies with our public cloud business. 产业技术方面,我们正打造面向大模型训练推理与行业智能化的新一代算力服务体系,提供从算力服务模型训练到MAS服务的全占能力,我们的云服务从通用算力向自善优先,AI原生进行产品升级,助力千行百页数字化,智能化转型。 我们持续围绕客户在训练和推理产品的需求进行技术能力升级 旨在为客户提供稳定的高效应用的智商服务 本季度新预平台的模型应用服务进一步升级 推出了NCP广场 Promot优化AI搜索能力 助力企业通过平台化方式实现Edgeant的开发落地 逐步构建以Agent的运行支撑为核心的全新生态 对于行业云客户私有化部署的自身场景 我们的云和云平台能够支撑易购GPU管理 Locked网络容器智能调度等能力 全占国产化深度适配 深度不能垂直行业的智能化增性 但在时代的新起点上 展望未来无限的可能令我们倍感兴奋 金山云会继续走高质量可持续发展的道路 坚信并拥抱AI战略机顺势而为 工身实干 打磨和沉淀核心产品技术解决方案能力

牢牢把握和生耕生态内外巨大的商机 精细化算力资产运营管理 进而不断提高盈利能力 In terms of products and technology, we are building a next-generation computing services system for L&M training, inference, and industrial intelligence, offering full-stack capabilities from computing services to model-as-a-service. Our technology upgrades from basic cloud computing to an AI-first, AI-native cloud architecture contributing for digital and intelligent transformation across sectors. We focused on the technology catering to model training and inference scenarios, aiming to provide highly stable, highly efficient, and ready-to-use intelligent computing services. This quarter, our Starflow platform keeps upgrading with the launch of MCP, aka Model Context Protocol Hub, prompt optimization, and AI search features to help enterprises develop and deploy AI agents through a unified platform, gradually building a new ecosystem centered around agent-based operations. For enterprises with private deployment demands, our Galaxy stack provides heterogeneous GPU management, road-key network, and intelligent container scheduling capabilities. We also feature full stack localization with indigenous adaptations to empower intelligent transformation across verticals. Standing at a new starting point, looking ahead, we're truly excited by the limitless possibilities that lie before us we will remain committed to our high quality and sustainable development strategy by embracing the immense opportunities presented by the AI era developing along with the industry and refining our core technologies we will continue to capture the market opportunities both within and beyond our ecosystem optimizing the operation of our assets to enhance profitability and thereby create value for customers, shareholders, employees, and society. I will now pass the call to our CFO, Mr. Lee, to go over our financials for the fourth quarter and fiscal year 2025. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Zhou and Clark. And thank you all for joining the call today. Before we walk through the details of financial results for the fourth quarter and fiscal year 2025. I would like to highlight the following aspects. First, our revenue has achieved record high, $2,761 million risk costs, representing a year-over-year growth rate of 24%. Within that, revenue from public cloud services was $1,902 million, increased by 30% in our revenue structure growth margin. Over-year growth has achieved...

As a reminder, To ask a question, you will need to press star 1 and 1 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question, press star 1 and 1 again. We'll now move on to our first question. Our first question comes from the line of Li Ping Xiao from CICC. Please go ahead.

Your line is open. 周总 李总 晚上好 感谢接受我的提问 那首先也是恭喜公司获得非常好的一个私底度业绩 那我这边有两个问题 首先第一个问题是关于这个小米的大模型 最近他们也推出了Memo这个V2的系列模型 获得了市场好评 那怎么看我们在小米AI战略中的一个角色和定位 然后未来围绕小米加金山系的这个服务会有什么样的一个策略 然后第二个问题是关于这个行业的一个涨价趋势的那其实我们最近看到行业里面有一些其他的这个云服务商也在有一些提价的动作那公司是否已经这个调整算力服务的价格或者有没有相关的一个涨价的那个计划 然后其中这个涨价的话有多少是这个需求来传导的,有多少是上游这个采购成分传导的。 我自己快速翻译一下。 Good evening, Mr. Joe and Ms. Lee. Thanks for taking my questions and congrats for the very good work queue results. I have two questions here. First, Xiaomi recently launched the MIMO V2 series models, which have received positive market feedback. How should we view our role and positioning within Xiaomi's AI strategy? And what strategies will be implemented around Xiaomi and the Kinsoft service going forward? And secondly, how does the management view the current pricing uptrend in the cloud service industry? Has the company already adjusted prices for AI computing services, or are there any related plans in place?

To what extent are those price adjustments driven by demand, or driven by the upstream procurement cost pass-through? 利平好 我第一个问题我先回答啊 然后第二个留他你来讲一讲 好吧 你的策略 其实第一个问题呢 我记得是24年的8月份的那次的会吧 因为我们24年8月份这个整个小米金山体系 我们开了一个战略院讨会 我其实那个时候我谈的其实就是说 叫做小米金山的AI方证 Also, I have clearly pointed out that I don't want to do a lot of things, but I will definitely do a lot of things. According to the last year, the last year, the last year, the last year, the MIMO and the Pro version of the VR and the Pro version, 陆续发布以及表现吧 这其实是我们24年整个战略的具体落地 对 所以呢就是 这是礼品这个问题 我先把这个背景说一下 谈到未来这个随着VR 这个Pro的发布以及它的性能 这个得到大家认可啊 就是未来整个在小米先生 这种策略 其实我觉得这个大的战略没有变 对 对于今天云来讲呢 其实我去年 在内部也非常明确的 跟大家谈过 包括应该说去年也是差不多这个时候吧 我们都 三月份我们就谈过 我说训练 由训练时代逐渐成黑 黑的二五年 我觉得今年反正这个 open call一出来 我就估计这个已经没人再去质疑了 实际上今天云在去年 呃 我们7月份全会上我们就谈过这个策略 因为我们知道小米的这个模型训练的进度啊 我们就谈了这叫所谓的一加N的对于金山金云啊 就是我们在未来要基于这个一就是指小米的这个模型 N呢 当然这个这个其他的无论是开源的还是战略合作伙伴的 对吧 我们我们作为一个中立的云场商啊 实际上我们的新流平台都接了能接的 1加N是关键 这个模型 这个未来如何演变啊 开源必源 或者一加三加 反正就是我们这个一子的 就是小米这个模型 这个是我们整个 整个整个这个小米 这个小米系的这个 这个阵眼吧 对 所以未来 也是围绕这个 当然内部的 这个这个 小米我们一方面啊 这个这个富豪 小米金山内部的 这个软件硬件生态 同时对外 这个也会输出我们 这个服务能力 这个MAS能力吧 好不好 所以简单讲呢 24年 我们在我们战略研究会 两年就对整个未来 这几年的发展呢 做了战略蓝图的规划 然后随着这个 进展吧 这些逐步逐步在落实 未来依然是 对金山云来讲 一加N没低处 不仅仅是在训练时代 服务好这些内外客户 未来在推理时代 也会基于一加N这个核心框架 去做好这个推理服务 整个第一个问题的 比较宏观的回答 Okay, so the answer comes from our CEO, Mr. So a little bit of background, so back in

2024, I think that was in August, we had an internal discussion around the development of AI and models for the whole Xiaomi and Kingsoft ecosystem. So the idea was that the whole Xiaomi and Kingsoft ecosystem will form a team of portfolio of solutions where a whole system where Kingsoft will stay disciplined and not really developing our own large language models, which are for Xiaomi to develop. So the model and it's widely, it's actually an implementation and manifestation of our overall AI strategy within the Xiaomi and Kingsoft. And secondly, back in 2025, so one year later, from a KC perspective, we formed a strategy that's called A1 plus N. So the one here actually refers to the Xiaomi MIMO model. In the ecosystem, Xiaomi and Kingsoft, for external customers, we will also try to monetize our model-as-a-service capabilities. Thereby, not only in the...

So the answer comes from our SVP, Mr. Liu Cao.

So as a little background again, so in the Q3 last year, we had anticipated the significant pricing of increase from the supply chain side. And therefore, we had dynamically and strategically were actually prepared for this, what's unfolding Now, in terms of the price hike that you run, if you already have contracts in place and where we have the stocking of the underlying resources, we tend to not. for some of the new customers, there's going to be significant. In terms of profitability, one thing is that we will actually try to pass through some of, depending on the demand, right, we'll also try to increase some of the price.

Thank you. Please stand by. Our next question comes from the line of Wenting Yu from CLFA. Please go ahead.

Your line is open. 第一个是关于近期我们我们看的行业的头部云场在业绩会上也去表示 业务会从这个传统的主流模式更多地去转向这个MARC模式 那我们现在也会采取类似的战略嘛 你们怎么去看待这个变化对行业竞争格局以及远期的运务率的影响呢 这个是第一个问题 那第二个问题也是关于行业竞争格局的问题 The first question is that some of your cloud service partners have announced they will ship their cloud business more towards an approach from the traditional server rental and also the subscription model. Will Casey adopt a similar strategy and how do you view the impact of this trend on industry competition and long-term profit margins? And the second question is regarding the impact from the back-end volcano engine. It is adopting a relatively low price strategy and how do we view the impact on the industry and also on potentially our business? Thank you.

I'll go back to you later, let me see what they're going to do. 其实你讲的第一个啊,就是我也关注到啊,其他的一些产品更早的发布采访,我觉得这个不是一个什么新鲜的提议法啊,这本身就是发模型发展的一个趋势吧,从刚开始训练,对吧,因为没有,然后随着这几年训练这个模型能力的增强,尤其是这个各种应用的出现啊,就是他真的在一个具体场面下,大家体会到了他本身带来的实际价值 or the actual effect of the use So, of course, it is also a way of training It will continue to change the time but it will be able to change the time It will be able to change the time and the ability to change the time This is a way of the process From this point on, we went to the last year in the last year, we launched a new platform So I think that as a business model, we all can get in here. This is our first-time business. We all know about this. This is what we talked about. The next question, I think it's a little bit faster. It's a little bit faster. But we are now at the same time, we still need to make them do MUST They are the MUST Two, I think this is the fact that I don't have to be interested in火山引擎 that we need to do a discount But you can ask that I think this is a business market and this is a supply chain and this is a supply chain 实际上那个所谓的低价策略,我觉得没办法去落实和自信,我也不认为会成为一个行业的普遍现象,关注到的是阿里,应该说自从做云以来,我所了解的,过去我们一起共同这个,作为友商一起成长了十几年,我是觉得这个这个现在需求极具火酸喷发式的需求,加上这个资源本身的紧确性,就是这个成交价。

Regarding your question on the shifting to model-to-service strategy, we have noted some of the other peer companies who released their results earlier than I was mentioning this. However, my view is that this is not actually some new concept, it is actually one of the inevitable stage of the development of AI as well as large language models. From the training that we do to create them to an applicable and so in relation to our own service work, we actually launched the Starflow platform last year, and because we are a neutral platform to provide model as a service, it's essentially the fastest growing business in the history of the company. Actually, so we talked about the Xiaomi MIMO model earlier. The way that we're providing services for Xiaomi MIMO model is also for some of the large language model customers that we used to and we're still providing training now a second question about the the price change for volcano engine we are the general market dynamics today is that on one hand we're seeing we're seeing a particularly high price supply chain size so I do not personally think there is the price hiking information from for example Ali cloud we have worked with them together we have been in the industry together for many years and And also, in addition from our SVP, Mr. Liu Tao, is that there is a difference between the catalog price and the actual price that us as cloud players and our customers engage into. So the change in catalog price is more of a marketing kind of...

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Timothy Zhao from Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.

Your line is open. 好的 感谢管理层给我提问的机会 也恭喜这个非常强劲的思维度的业绩 那我这边可能有两条问题 那第一条可能是和财务相关吧 那想请管理层分享一下 我们对于整个2026年的收入 EBITDA 包括OP的展望是如何的 特别是考虑到我们25年整个的利润率 有一个比较明显的 另外就是对于2026年的这个 QFACS 资本开支 我们应该是怎么去展望的 考虑到我们现在的 现实储备 包括款的一些安排 我们对于资本开支 是不是有进一步提高 这个应该是怎么去考虑 这个可能是第一问题 第二个问题是 请教一下我们对于 非常一部分的第三方的 AI手术的程度 是怎么展望的 我们觉得 哪些产品 我们应该是怎么去展望的 考虑到我们现在的储备 包括款的一些安排 我们对于资本开支 是不是有进一步提高 这个应该是怎么去考虑 这个可能是第一问题 第二个问题是 请教一下我们对于 非常一部分的第三方的 AI收集的程度 是怎么展望的 我们觉得哪些产品 哪里客户 Thank you, Michael, for taking my question. My first question is on your financial outlook. Just wondering if you can share some color. How we should think about the revenue, EBDA, operating profit growth outlook for this year, And also on the capital expenditure plan, what is your thoughts and concern of the balance sheet and also the prepayment from certain customers? Do you think it's possible to further raise your CapEx plan given the rising AI demand? And secondly, it's regarding the third-party revenue in the AI outlook. I'm just wondering if you can share more detail color on what specific product or what type of customers are driving the third-party AI growth, and also what is the breakdown and outlook between the mix of AI training versus AI inferences.

I will take the CAPEX first. For 2026, we expect total CAPEX and controlled asset to exceed RMB 10 billion, representing inspection from 2025 level. On funding structure, we expect approximately half our CAPAC is targeted to be covered by customer prepayment arrangements, which will significantly reduce safer funding requirements. Additionally, we plan to access more assets through short and long-term leases. With payment structure as operating cash flows to minimize up from capital income. For the funding position and financing lease, we currently have no equity finance plan. 2026 capital expenditure are secured three channels, 2025 financing, and the second custom operating receipts and will be made primarily through leasing to print.

The past results, as discussed in the prepared remarks, the year-over-year basis revenue growth was 44%, which is really strong growth. So those would include internet companies, autonomous driving, and robotics. And then in terms of looking forward into the year of 2026, we do see extremely large demand coming from outside of the ecosystem, actually higher than the demand from our ecosystem. So, the final wrapping of financial results coming from that demand will actually be dependent on how much resources we're able to secure. From the perspective of products and solutions, we're actually seeing more than half of the potential demand coming in training. And then for the Starflow platform, which we discussed earlier, it's growing really fast for that business coming from that particular business. And this is the result, of course, from the very good application, very good application and increasing penetration for agents and the core applications.

This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.